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corell View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Joined: 19 August 2013
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Points: 1159 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 March 2014 at 5:01pm
why would they not keep up? because of power handling of the drivers? the results above (simulation) are easily achievable with a 15" design. and you can do a single 15" FLH in ~220l with a single fold.

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Gramps View Drop Down
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Points: 1046 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gramps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2014 at 7:58pm
The rest of the system is made up of very high efficiency FLH's, the sub's in particular are monsters, and 15" BP kick would be no use. 

For some reason, a 15" folded horn hadn't occurred to me though - cheers for coming up with that solution, might just be a winner!! Something in a similar configuration to a Martin 215MK2 would work well for our purposes. Will give this some more thought and twiddling on hornresp..

Cheers,

Gramps.  
 


Edited by Gramps - 01 April 2014 at 8:00pm
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corell View Drop Down
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Points: 1159 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2014 at 8:25pm
yes, something exactly like the martin 2x15" cabs was in my mind ;)
PN me if you need help or anything
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Points: 4549 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2014 at 8:48pm

Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

bee, maybe you mismatched the two graphs? the lw1400 is the flat one in the simu..
your probably right when you are saying they will start to honk at 150hz or so, but if playing high up is a design goal, surely you wont choose a 18" (or is that only me?)



ooops my bad the lw1400 is the better of the two..... plus one on a 15" if the goal is higher than 150hz
https://www.elements-audio.com
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bee View Drop Down
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Points: 4549 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2014 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by Gramps Gramps wrote:

Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

the lw1400 looks horrible a few db up at 90hz but this driver is far from flat and defo wont play about 150hz with out honking.... the nlw9400 driver looks a lot better but again will honk above 150hz...

Just wondering Bee - how is it that you can tell that both drivers are going to honk above 150hz? The LW1400 in particular looks pretty much ruler flat from 80-150hz, where it gradually rolls off, according to Corells sims. I've seen some pretty nasty peeks in response come up as you add more power into the equation on Hornresp - is that something to do with it..? 

I'm going to sit down with Hornresp myself tomorrow, model the cab and try to see what's going on...

Cheers, 

Gramps.

ive built tested and loaded a lot of usb's im yet to hear a driver that don't honk above 160hz in the usb. The reason for this is purely a design floor in a bph cab design.... there are ways to get a bph to play higher but at a loss of low end. A good 15" bph design can reach 180hz if designed right, add a oem driver and a bit of phase buggery and you could get them to go above 200hz but again at a loss of low end, and a softer kick....  
https://www.elements-audio.com
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bee View Drop Down
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Points: 4549 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2014 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Gramps Gramps wrote:

Thanks guys,

@ Ceharden - agreed, I'm not sure what the issue is - I thought Bee might have done his own sim's and come up with something that doesn't look as good.

@ Corell - I looked at using something like the HD215, and the output would simply not keep up with the rest of the system. If 15" drivers were used it would have to be in a more efficient FLH design, which we've decided against because they'd be too bloody large!

Cheers, 

Gramps.

horn resp does not sim a bph as well as the actual rta reading the two can be very different, I use akabak to sim all my cabs first, this gets me to a starting point, after this its measure cab and driver and tweak design. Ill try and dig out if I can remember what hard drive the rta plots are on for the usb... plots were done for about 10 drivers, and a/b to the simulation ... not one was a match... secondly its fairly easy to get an ok result with the rear firing bph design, but to get a front firing version correct is a lot harder to do, but when you do get it right, its far far better than the rear firing versions. Cleaner, clearer sound with more definition, and they will play lower and higher, spl is about the same.
https://www.elements-audio.com
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Mark James View Drop Down
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Points: 5306 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2014 at 10:47pm
hb1505c1.......
insert silly sentence here
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corell View Drop Down
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Points: 1159 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2014 at 11:12pm
yes thats probably a killer. but IMO one smooth fold is acceptable in a 3 way top. Like mkb /mkh 230
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Originally posted by Mark James Mark James wrote:

hb1505c1.......

We'd looked at Biotec's version of that, and into the original design already. Biotec's are awesome (there's a build thread on here somewhere), with a phase plug and properly calculated internals to suite a few key drivers, but they're so massively over built that they weigh over 100kg each, so completely impractical. The originals look good, but would be a one trick pony - sole use would be as a kick bin, as they wouldn't make very effective bass bins on their own! We'd like something that could double as a bass cab for smaller gigs, so a 2x18 BPH, or a 2x15 FLH design with a suitably lower cutoff point than the straight path horns will work well for us.


Edited by Gramps - 02 April 2014 at 12:11am
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Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

yes, something exactly like the martin 2x15" cabs was in my mind ;)
PN me if you need help or anything

That's awesome, thanks buddy. Have been playing with some sims this evening - looking good so far but I'm sure confusion will set in at some point! 

Cheers,

Gramps. 
To do a dull thing with style - now that's an art.
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Mark James View Drop Down
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Points: 5306 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2014 at 1:21pm
good point :p yep bioteks bins [coffin iirc] were epic simples lol ive got a pair of double versions of the original selenium cab unloaded at the minute but wen cash allows........... they are epic 80-250 ish hz if you ever want to try them and can get some drivers to use let me know i might be able to arrange something :P but yeah a one trick pony as such i do have a mate with klike 8 double versions who doesnt use subs below but he does live rock covers bands so lacking under 70hz isnt a massive problem [its not ideal but he gets away with it if he cant get away with it he uses his void arcline x subs........ ] like i said if you can get someting you can use when you dont have the subs out might be able to arrange some cabs to usewhen you do have subs out.... probably using same drivers just a tougt oh and btw you can get both doubles in a fiesta...... i collected them from wales [im in bournemouth] with one on the roof rack one in the car pics are on here somewhere lol
good luck with the new project :_]
insert silly sentence here
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corell View Drop Down
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Points: 1159 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2014 at 4:00pm
i´d do a single 15" FLH with one smooth fold and port the backchamber. when used on its own, you have a little extension due to the BR-part and if you cross it to a sub, the frequencys coming out of the port wont be"used" and you have a pure FLH (you could even use a backbowl then).
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