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Void v18-1000 in a wsx

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyklist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2008 at 9:38pm
you could make the input stage circuitry proportionally control the signal to any transistor though, making any gain stage of an amp unclippable

Edited by Cyklist - 20 November 2008 at 9:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2008 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Cyklist Cyklist wrote:

you could make the input stage circuitry proportionally control the signal to any transistor though, making any gain stage of an amp unclippable
 

Originally posted by Rog Mogale Rog Mogale wrote:

I�m really happy with the clip detection system as well. All my tests confirm that whatever you do the amplifier will not deliver a clipped waveform at the outputs. No matter how hard you drive the inputs the output will not clip the signal. This is very important for keeping voice coils cool. So this is not an amp that you have to closely monitor what you feed it. As long as the source material in clean you can drive the amps with the clip/limit lights on full for as long as you like, the clip detection circuit will do the rest for you. And don�t be afraid of driving these amps hard too. I�ve put the test samples under the toughest conditions I can think of and still haven�t had one fail yet. Most of my tests were conducted driving into 1 ohm dummy loads per channel or connected to six 18� drivers per channel. So that�s 1.33 ohms per channel and I got the most mental piece of music I could find that had the highest current draw of all and looped the most intense part of the track and played it for days on end without a break. This is a condition that would never happen in the real world, but I have to take into account every eventuality. I also didn't use horn loaded cabinets for the 18" woofers as this might increase the impedance. Again the fuse rating has been set to only allow for 2 ohm per channel use. For 1 ohm per channel use the input cable and many other internal power wires would have to be increased in diameter and it�s a bit cramped for space as it is.


Originally posted by Rog Mogale Rog Mogale wrote:

I've not gone for a limiter in the classic sense of the word. The output is sampled and feadback to a VCA which can limit both rail voltages and output stage input level. This way you can catch anything thats starting to look dodgy. Attack time will be the latency of the detection loop (< 1ms) and release will be untill no clip is detected, so there is no release time of such. VCA off time from attenuation is around 5ms.
 
I've tested with four 18" woofers in reflex boxes per channel and the fuse will not blow with a music signal, no matter how demanding your music is. The fuse is rated at 30 amps and you should expect to see peaks of around 38 amps when driving into 2 ohms per side. The peaks will not cause the fuse to blow but a continued draw of 38 amps would blow the fuse. It takes some quite intanse souce material to see 38 amps on the front panel current draw meter and I've only 2 tracks that can make the meter read around 36 amps. Because the meter displays an average reading most of the time you will see between 16 to 30 amps on the front panel LED readout when driving in to 2 ohms per channel. A clamp meter with a hold or peak function will display the peaks which will be higher than the average reading. To give you an idea of the power comsumption if you see 25 amps when driving into 4 ohms per channel this means the amp is drawing 6000 watts from the mains (25 x 240). The Infinite 8 v2 is 84% effecicent, so if you times 6000 by 0.84 you get 5040, which will be the output power going to the speakers.
 
For maximum output and control on bass I would say that 8 or 4 ohms per side of any amp gives you the best bass. Infinite 8 will do 2 ohms all day long, but the more amps you have on the same amount of woofers the better it will be.
 
Rog.

Originally posted by Rog Mogale Rog Mogale wrote:

Limiters just effect the ratio of loud to quiet sounds, they do not and cannot change the efficiency of an amplifer. The only thing that can change the operating efficiency is the load seen by the amplifier. The lower the impedance the more heat is generated so the efficiency is reduced. If an amp is 86% efficient into 4 ohms per side, then the limiters cannot effect the efficiency value. Only changing the load seen by the amp can change the efficiency.

Getting back to the LED's on the Infinite 8 V2. Because the amp has many different sections monitored and controlled, the LEDS will never perform how they would on a normal amp. When the -12 dB LED lights then the signal at the output is -12dB below maximum output. Note I didn't say its -12dB below clipping. As there is no clipping, all you have to go by is the maximum output avaliable. And this maximum output will keep increasing as the monitoring circuit checks each section. When all sections are working at full capacity and it has been ascertained that the load can handle this level of output, then the maximum output will have been reached. If you keep increasing the input level when the amplifier has obtained its maximum output nothing happens. There can be no more output so the extra input level is ignored. But this rarely happens as each note of say a bass line will not be at the same level. By increasing the input level you decrease the ration of loud to quite, this is not accomplished by a limiter but by the different sections of the amp reporting when they have reached there maxiumim working limit.
 
The only analogy I can give is this. With a ture limiter its like having one man at the front door and only letting though a certain amount of people into the building. He has no idea what is happening around the building and may be able to let more though, but plays it safe as he thinks he knows what is an acceptable amount. With the Infinite 8 V2, its like the man at the front door having a walkie talkie and is in contact with all the other sections of the building. So when the front door man decides the building is full he contacts the other parts and asks them. One room might say, oh, got room for another 8 in here and another room might say yeah, I can fit another 6 in here. So thats an extra 14 people that would not have got in if only the front door man would of had his way. But it goes one futher than that with this amp. As all the rooms are in contact with each other they can move people around to make more space. So if one room is 100 meter square and its 99.5 meters full, that room can contact all the other rooms as say, hey, i've got 0.5 square meters free, but if I get rid of 2 people that are odd shapes and put them in other rooms that have just enough space left for them I can then fit an extra 2 square meters of people in. Its this jugling of power and distribution around the amp that dicates its max output and that otput will always be a lot higher than if a simple limiter decides when the amp has had enough.
 
So its difficult to get the LEDs to mimic what is happening inside. All I can say is that if you see the CEP LED light, then different sections of the amp have just began to comunicate with each other. There might be another 6 dB of gain avaliable at that point, but you will never know unless you raise the input level by 6dB. So the CEP LED is not a limiter LED as such, its the amp trying to organise itself for maximum output. If its on a lot of the time then good, as this means there is a lot of communicaction taking place, and we all know that without good communication things start to go wrong.
 
If you read the manual its explanes what all the LEDS stand for and do.
 
Rog.

Wink


Edited by toastyghost - 20 November 2008 at 10:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pfly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2008 at 10:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S DeXter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2008 at 11:36pm
But it is limiting, there is no doubt about that. From the above instead of using the input signal as the bias on the limiter it is using feedback from the output circuitry instead, to squeeze that extra little bit out.

I would be intrigued to bench test one of these to see exactly what waveform is coming out at lets say 70% CEP duty.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2008 at 11:36am
Originally posted by CHAMPION CHAMPION wrote:

Andrew Sonic Sound .. had these loaded with Vs 1000.........Bad boy cabs
 
As mentioned before, and as Andre sonic has told me, the AWSX are not full WSX copies, As WSX has S horn, where as these have more of a C Horn. When Andrew was trying PD186/V18-1000 in there, I did tell him to try  V18-1000 sharpish.Wink
 
Champ, could you describe the depth and throw of the sub you heard, and compare it to Scoops, 2x18 reflex etc?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rezsbc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2008 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by S DeXter S DeXter wrote:

But it is limiting, there is no doubt about that. From the above instead of using the input signal as the bias on the limiter it is using feedback from the output circuitry instead, to squeeze that extra little bit out.

I would be intrigued to bench test one of these to see exactly what waveform is coming out at lets say 70% CEP duty.


 
Agreed... but you must admit it's vastly different from a simple compressor on the input stage no?
 
So you can't really say Macrotech + Limiter is the exact same thing.


Edited by rezsbc - 21 November 2008 at 4:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkm4n Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2018 at 6:14pm
Sorry for waking a old thread.

I have 8 x Martin WSX ( 500w version ), all original drivers and I'am looking to upgrade to V18-1000, does anyone know if spacers are required or any other mods ?

Should I expect a big improvement after the upgrade ?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2018 at 6:45pm
what are you thinking this "upgrade" is going to give you? Yes, you will gain some power handling, but likely loose some sensitivity, and could end up with less output and a big bill for the drivers and the amps to suit....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djeddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2018 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

what are you thinking this "upgrade" is going to give you? Yes, you will gain some power handling, but likely loose some sensitivity, and could end up with less output and a big bill for the drivers and the amps to suit....



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacethebase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2018 at 9:31am
which driver are they loaded with at 500w?

Should either be a 600w RCF or a 1000w B&C


Edited by jacethebase - 14 August 2018 at 9:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacethebase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2018 at 9:35am
my experience with WSX, if your not getting Insaine amounts of bass out of them. Look at your deployment before starting to put diffrent drivers in them etc.

They only come alive in piles of 4 plus a side. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkm4n Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2018 at 12:59pm
I believe they are the 600W RCF, not sure but on them it says 500W.

The cabs are pretty old, changing the drivers it should be an improvement, that's what I am thinking. Plus I can sell the old drivers and got a pretty important upgrade for a small amount of money. Also, for the amps I got some LA8 that I can use without presets or some FP10000q, this shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks!
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