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What SPL (dBz/flat) do you start to feel the subs?
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citizensc View Drop Down
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Could this be related to distortion? 

Distortion obviously increases perceived volume without increasing SPL.

So if you have two stacks of subs that SOUND like they are at the EXACT same SPL

Stack A: A single 18inch reflex putting out 133dB - Distorting because its being pushed

Stack B: 4 x 18 inch reflex putting out 136dB - Not distorting because it has heaps of headroom

Stack B is going to have more of a physical feeling than stack A simply because its achieving higher SPL but as mentioned it doesn't sound louder.


Edited by citizensc - 15 April 2021 at 1:26am
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Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

I'll agree there can be some structural transmission of vibrations in certain environments but that can happen without it being felt too and I know enough to be able to differentiate.

If you have a stack do an experiment, set it up outside on solid ground and test the SPL level where you just start to feel the dynamics in the air, it's going to be relative to distance from the stack but I bet you will find it's a lot lower spl than what you might think and the bigger the stack the less spl required to feel it. 

I don’t have a stack yet***, and my reason for asking this question is to know if what hornresp is telling me is enough for what I’m trying to get out of it. That is the exact kind of measurement though that I was hoping others may have done, or just in general what people’s best guess is as to a number for a satisfying level of physicality.
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Elliot I appreciate the depth of your comment there’s seemingly a lot to unpack when it comes to the physicality of bass. I am mostly still curious though as to a rough number that is to say if you are standing in a place outside where you are receiving a satisfactory level of physical bass, what might the SPL meter read in dBz?

Citizensc I definitely agree distortion will have a lot to do with why big stacks sound better and likely why they are more physical. Distortion definitely masks the fundamental, but as to how our bodies actual perceive this is a great question i.e if the distortion is somehow reducing the power of the fundamental not just masking it.
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Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Could this be related to distortion? 

That affects apparent SPL(more distortion sounds louder) but it doesn't translate to tactile feel. Take your example of a single sub and 4 subs, run them both at a measured 120dB@1m which is well withun the capabilities of even the single. The 4 sub stack will produce quite a bit more tactile feel because that cluster of drivers are a much more effective interface with the immediate air volume in front of them. 
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Originally posted by KaphaSound KaphaSound wrote:

Elliot I appreciate the depth of your comment there’s seemingly a lot to unpack when it comes to the physicality of bass. I am mostly still curious though as to a rough number that is to say if you are standing in a place outside where you are receiving a satisfactory level of physical bass, what might the SPL meter read in dBz?


dB Meters read all frequency's total level. Unless you turn off the tops (Note: An array of tops will offer bass frequencies as well as they are full-range cabinets), you cannot estimate the dB Level solely on the subs. You can get 130 dB read from a SPL meter a few inches away from one sub. You can also achieve 130 dB at front of the house with the tops playing alone and, with the tops & subs playing.


dB meters will not tell you what is satisfactory for bass from a physical standpoint. That is human perception. All Sound men use their own judgement on what they feel is satisfactory when applying bass. There is no set rule.


Think of it as competition car sound systems owners. The SPL can be measured using a dB meter. However, it is the overall reaction from the spectators, that matters the most to the car sound system owner, when the spectator(s) embark the bass.


Best Regards,









Elliot Thompson
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Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Could this be related to distortion? 

That affects apparent SPL(more distortion sounds louder) but it doesn't translate to tactile feel. Take your example of a single sub and 4 subs, run them both at a measured 120dB@1m which is well withun the capabilities of even the single. The 4 sub stack will produce quite a bit more tactile feel because that cluster of drivers are a much more effective interface with the immediate air volume in front of them. 


Has anyone actually tried this? Has anyone set up an SPL meter and compared the physicality of a single sub and multiple subs at the same SPL in a scientific way? The reason I am talking about apparent SPL is I suspect people are using their ears to compare loudness between systems and then using the term 'SPL' to describe this loudness but are being mislead by psycho acoustic effects. They are then saying 'x system sounded really loud but wasn't very physical, but y system wasn't that loud but I could really feel it' when in reality Y system was achieving higher SPL. 

Edited by citizensc - 15 April 2021 at 3:10am
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Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

dB Meters read all frequency's total level. Unless you turn off the tops (Note: An array of tops will offer bass frequencies as well as they are full-range cabinets), you cannot estimate the dB Level solely on the subs. You can get 130 dB read from a SPL meter a few inches away from one sub. You can also achieve 130 dB at front of the house with the tops playing alone and, with the tops & subs playing.


dB meters will not tell you what is satisfactory for bass from a physical standpoint. That is human perception. All Sound men use their own judgement on what they feel is satisfactory when applying bass.


I was actually not aware that spl meters factor in all frequencies at once I genuinely thought it read the loudest frequency at any given point in time but I’m glad if that is the case! Having said that though the kinds of levels that I’m aiming for would have the bass up anywhere from +20-30dBz compared to the tops, at which point surely the tops aren’t adding very much to the total spl level? Even so to the point about turning off the tops entirely that would be even better to compare to the hornresp sims!

Also citizensc I follow your logic but I would think that the tactile sensation would add far more to perceived total loudness than distortion. In fact I can pretty much guarantee that to be the case as I use a Subpac for my daily listening and I have noticeably turned the mains volume down by as much as 10db compared to what I used to listen at. Whenever someone tries it that hasn’t before with headphones on they end up screaming when they talk because they’ve completely lost the reference for what normal volume is.


Edited by KaphaSound - 15 April 2021 at 6:45am
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Could this be related to distortion? 

That affects apparent SPL(more distortion sounds louder) but it doesn't translate to tactile feel. Take your example of a single sub and 4 subs, run them both at a measured 120dB@1m which is well withun the capabilities of even the single. The 4 sub stack will produce quite a bit more tactile feel because that cluster of drivers are a much more effective interface with the immediate air volume in front of them. 


Has anyone actually tried this? Has anyone set up an SPL meter and compared the physicality of a single sub and multiple subs at the same SPL in a scientific way? The reason I am talking about apparent SPL is I suspect people are using their ears to compare loudness between systems and then using the term 'SPL' to describe this loudness but are being mislead by psycho acoustic effects. They are then saying 'x system sounded really loud but wasn't very physical, but y system wasn't that loud but I could really feel it' when in reality Y system was achieving higher SPL. 


I did that decades ago. It is the reason why, I only use double drivers per enclosure and not a single driver in each enclosure. The majority however, wants to extract every bit of SPL from the least amount of boxes as possible. 

If one just wants more harmonic distortion, inserting a piece of gear that is known to offer distortion in the chain, will solve the issue. 


Best Regards,


Elliot Thompson
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Originally posted by KaphaSound KaphaSound wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

dB Meters read all frequency's total level. Unless you turn off the tops (Note: An array of tops will offer bass frequencies as well as they are full-range cabinets), you cannot estimate the dB Level solely on the subs. You can get 130 dB read from a SPL meter a few inches away from one sub. You can also achieve 130 dB at front of the house with the tops playing alone and, with the tops & subs playing.


dB meters will not tell you what is satisfactory for bass from a physical standpoint. That is human perception. All Sound men use their own judgement on what they feel is satisfactory when applying bass.


I was actually not aware that spl meters factor in all frequencies at once I genuinely thought it read the loudest frequency at any given point in time but I’m glad that is the case! Having said that though the kinds of levels that I’m aiming for would have the bass up anywhere from +20-30dBz compared to the tops, at which point surely the tops aren’t adding very much to the total spl level? Even so to the point about turning off the tops entirely that would be even better to compare to the hornresp sims!


 

So you are pretty much going to have do some lengthy math on amplifier wattage and loudspeaker wattage to attain a + 20 dB to +30 dB of gain of bass over the tops.

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Has anyone actually tried this? Has anyone set up an SPL meter and compared the physicality of a single sub and multiple subs at the same SPL in a scientific way?
I'm not aware of a specific example at the moment but this is based on transducer physics. The efficiency of a  loudspeakers is a measure of it's ability to turn electrical impulses into acoustic impulses, this is quite a small number for direct radiators... about 4% for a driver with 98db sensitivity. That means only 4% of the electrical energy sent to the driver produces sound, the other 96% is wasted in heat. But every time the number of drivers is doubled you get a 3dB increase in sensitivity and a doubling of efficiency.
Air is not very dense and low frequency wavelengths are hugh so the effective radiating area of a speaker system is the most significant factor for low frequencies, more direct radiating drivers or the use of acoustic couplers(horns) always produces better results than fewer speakers driven harder. 
We experience sound in two distinct ways.. as vibrations of the air and as pressure impulses, the two are related of course but require different approaches. Just about any size device can produce vibrations that are audible at higher frequencies but effective production of short term low frequency pressure impulses requires a radiating surface that is large relative to the listening space. Indoors this is easier to do but outdoors with no boundaries to contain the air the impulse decays quickly, so system requirements go way up.

Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

The reason I am talking about apparent SPL is I suspect people are using their ears to compare loudness between systems and then using the term 'SPL' to describe this loudness but are being mislead by psycho acoustic effects. They are then saying 'x system sounded really loud but wasn't very physical, but y system wasn't that loud but I could really feel it' when in reality Y system was achieving higher SPL. 
Yes that is a thing... happens all the time, a significant portion of listeners(and even DJs) are of the opinion that "it's not LOUD until it's distorting". 
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What is the relation between sound intensity  (W/m2) and SPL (dB) and how do these couple to the physical sensation? I have been given to understand (told) that these are equal and follow eachother, but I cannot recall it being explained to me, the reason I mention this is a suspicion that they might differ and that this may explain why a greater coupling area (apart from directivity aspects) may render a more physical experience earlier on the SPL scale.
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Originally posted by martinsson martinsson wrote:

What is the relation between sound intensity  (W/m2) and SPL (dB) and how do these couple to the physical sensation? I have been given to understand (told) that these are equal and follow eachother, but I cannot recall it being explained to me, the reason I mention this is a suspicion that they might differ and that this may explain why a greater coupling area (apart from directivity aspects) may render a more physical experience earlier on the SPL scale.


How much experience you have being exposed to high sound pressure levels will determine the amount of tolerance you can handle under a given scenario. The person with the least amount of experience, will be easily amazed by the air pressure propagating from a single large woofer. Such individuals have a lower threshold of expectations for bass. Those who have experienced multiple large woofers playing at high sound pressure levels, will have a higher expectation to reach their level of satisfaction.


The above is not limited to bass. It applies to everything in a human's life.


Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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