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Which subwoofers for sound installation
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sonic_traveler View Drop Down
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Points: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sonic_traveler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Tinnitus Rex Tinnitus Rex wrote:

I looked at your drawing and at sub 60hz you cannot distiguish where the sound source is and the more speakers you have the more they will just cancel each other out. Also having the listening position in the centre of a space there will be the worse listening possition possible for bass . please do watch this ,its important
https://youtu.be/h_8976ejoVY - https://youtu.be/h_8976ejoVY
 Those floor transducers may be hire-able and they would  elliminate the problem because
contrary to most peoples understanding "You dont hear sub bass , you feel it", and you have to get it to resonate you at your resonant frequency ( or you lung cavity frequency)
You would be very supprised how good  those transducers are in action .. they are used by drummers and bass players preciely because it is imposible to hear bass when your close to it as each frequency has a different accoustic wavelength.
Forget speakers ,you will create more problems than you will solve , transducers are WAY better because they use conduction rather than radiation . and only the people experiencing the instalation will perceive it ,win win
 Having battled acoustic feedback for most of my sound career, there is an art to it ,
its "like a snail crawling on the edge of straight razor!" (Apocalypse now)Cry
Obviosly the people experiencing this cannot be the sourse of it , or it will give them a heart attack by phase canceling their heart (Dont have nightmares ,just a thoughtBig smile)

This video is super helpful thanks Wink! 
I will check out some rental companies indeed to check these transducers out. At the beginning I was also thinking of using them but was afraid they wouldn't create a similar vibration in the body, because you probably recognize that it's coming from the floor. But I guess testing them would make things more clear. And if I can eliminate all these problems with that I would already be a big step further with my project ;).
May I ask what is it that you are doing when you say sound career?
And yeah, probably you are right^^. I don't want people getting heart attacks!
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sonic_traveler View Drop Down
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Points: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sonic_traveler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Xoc1 Xoc1 wrote:

You may not be happy with the idea of rental but with the multiple sub approach you are going to run into budget problems. 5 cabinets with amplifiers that can produce the impact you want will cost a conciderable amount, and if you only want them for a single project there seems no point in buying or building.
Bass frequencies from a single cabinet are not directional, so can not be steered by rotation. But bass from multiple cabinets will give interference patterns. They don't cancel but will have various summation and null points throughout the soundfield. This assumes that the speakers have the same bass signal which is probably not the case here.
Multiple speakers are are usually coupled together to produce a bass response with the least amount of interference for the listeners. This can be as simple as grouping all the speakers together to create a even dispersion.
When bass speakers are distanced from each other the soundfield is usually controlled by the timing of the signal using a digital crossover.
However If you can keep all the signals separate the result is far more chaotic and natural. Think of the difference between one bass drum through multiple speakers which would give fixed null positions, and the different impact of 5 separate drummers where each transient would be different in time and phase.
Subs have a limited pass band. A lot of the information in an audio signal is contained in the higher frequencies which convey the harmonics and directional information. So I would think you would need to concider if each speaker position actually requires to be full range.

Hi there, thanks for the comment ;). Yes, I agree. I will definately go for rental now!
I have to say, I do not completely understand what you are saying here -> "However If you can keep all the signals separate the result is far more chaotic and natural". Do you mean that if I would have each individual signal displayed on an individual speaker, this would work? Or that this would cause problems? Because, how I understood it, is that both will be problematic. Also, you are saying that a subwoofer is not made to display several signals at the same time, but a full range speaker would, as they are build to play several frequencies / harmonies? So you mean full range speakers would actually be better?


Edited by sonic_traveler - 15 May 2022 at 12:47pm
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sonic_traveler View Drop Down
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Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

I agree with Xoc1, just rent in a bunch of powered 15” or 18” subs and spread them around the listening area - if you’re bussing the individual people to different speakers (or a mix thereof) instead of all people to each speaker.

Even if the latter was the goal, you can use this with an external (rented) DSP or even a multi-channel soundcard and delay VST assigned to each channel in something live Waves MultiRack. A £30 measurement mic is ideal, but any microphone will get decent enough results:
https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso// - https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso/html/

For non-sub content, your uni probably has a bunch of Genelec or similar small-format monitors that you can use for free, if it has a music focus of any kind.

You're looking at a few hundred quid to rent for a week versus thousands to build a decent setup from scratch. Especially if you wanted to do something with a lot of tactile transducers. Using those for a large area is a *very* different thing than sticking one to a drummer's seat. I've got four Powersoft Mover sat in a box because the budget to apply the design at scale wasn't feasible. That was for an area smaller than what you're intending to use, and the Mover are the most powerful tactile transducers by far at 20kN per unit.

I believe the original BodySonic dancefloor in Fabric nightclub uses at least 64 of a custom Beyma tactile unit, alongside the six subwoofers. It’s not a massive area.

Subs in one location is actually a pretty terrible idea if you’re after the least spatial variance across the sound field.

I’d ignore comments from people who clearly haven’t studied the applications of spatial sound via the various methods, such as VBAP, Ambisonics, WFS and all the stuff in-between. Respected and smart engineers such as Earl Geddes & Floyd Toole are huge advocates for multiple subwoofer deployments, with good reason.

You can also get great results with just two subs:
https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso/html/reference-manual/tips_tricks.html#how_many_subs

Plenty of links on the MSO site for further study - which you can cite in your dissertation more easily than "Random Internet Guy"

Hi, thanks for your tips :). The site you mentioned is very helpful as well!
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Ah, my career? ... errm..erm.. ,I make dreamers louder.If I can't make them sound good ..I can make them sound better. I just do this until I  get a sensible job that doesnt hurt so much.
"couldn't we just like... use headphones?"
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Thank you all! I think I have learned a lot already. I think now I have to process all the comments and tips ;). Feel free to keep on commenting. I might not answer directly!
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Originally posted by Tinnitus Rex Tinnitus Rex wrote:

Ah, my career? ... errm..erm.. ,I make dreamers louder.If I can't make them sound good ..I can make them sound better. I just do this until I  get a sensible job that doesnt hurt so much.

haha okay Wink
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My thoughts on this:-
  Using optical pulse sensors, mounted for the index finger of each chair shouldn't cause any feed back issues. These are probably fairly easy to source cheaply with a bit of digging. I remember some phones had them paired with the camera flash for this purpose.
   Specific bandpass cheap Chinese subwoofers are readily available and can be sold on after the event. I'm thinking something like a 15" dual reflex bandpass, 400-500w passive. Funnily enough, the design that greets you on the forum home page!
   Mount a cheap vibrating cushion or backrest to each chair in tandem with a dedicated subwoofe in front. So your example would be 5 of each.
   Bass at the frequencies you're talking about is essentially omni directional, so to keep things simple just have one signal per seat/sub.
   5 channels of amplification is not expensive these day. Probably 2x 4 channel commercial amps from Crown or Cloud would do it and provide a few spare channels.
   A visual cue, probably connected somehow to the signal sense of the amplifiers would provide another dimension. This could be displayed as a heart beat graphic on a small monitor attached to the top hat pole above each subwoofer.
   As already mentioned, multiple heart beats will either accentuate each other if exactly in phase between subs, or cancel each other out if not. This compounding cacophony may or may not be what youre after!
   In the space you have described, which I imagine to be free space within an exhibition  hall or similar will have no effective boundaries to reduce sounds leakage. This may get tiresome for your neighbours!

Just my noggin outpourings, opinions are just like some other things!


Edited by Lucasdude - 15 May 2022 at 3:00pm
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