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will an x-tro comfortably meet a LAB horn?

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biotec View Drop Down
Old Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biotec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2006 at 10:30am
thanks for your help walt, I suppose what I need is a 15 inch kick bin to go between 90 and 350. The purpose of this is to use an 8inch and 1 inch combination. If I use an HD215 or USB I'd need a 12 and a 1.5"/2" combo with their associated problems as the fold limits the lowpass. I find it strange that there is no current design specifically for this kick region. I feel that the HD15 and the other bp horns are compromised by the fact that under some circumstances they are used on there own for the full bass range and so wont allow the 350hz cutoff that you achieved with the xtro.

Do you have any comments on whether stretching the upper crossover of the selenium is a good idea or what modifications I should look for when increasing the mouth area of the xtro double 15 section to make it more efficient in its own cabinet?
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Contour View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Contour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2006 at 10:45am
Hello Biotec,
 
There is another point to take into account if you want to make the mouth bigger. The bigger mouth will give higher efficiency (3-4dB) but only in the region in which the horn is effective (this is determined by hornlength). This means that a bigger mouth will result in a higher -3dB point (a shift from about from 80Hz to 100Hz when doubling the mouth area of the X-tro). Response above 200Hz is not only determined by the horn but also by the used drivers itself.
 
Please take a look at the throat geometry of the X-tro. A good 'kick' is (for an important part) generated by the edge of the driver. You have to make sure the edge of the driver can radiate into the horn. This is my own experience, others may have different thoughts about this.
 
Best regards,
 
Walt
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biotec View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biotec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2006 at 11:25am
I think changing the horn geometry is already out of my capability without a lot of trial an error, something which I certainly don't have time for at the moment, going into my final year of an engineering degree.

My idea was to reorientate the drivers so that they were both vertical in the cabinet and keep the front and rear chamber identical (using the original specced 18sound driver). If I was then to increase the mouth area of the horn to the full height of the baffle, how long would the horn have to be to maintain a sub 90Hz -3db point, as drawn badly bellow. The 2 other dimensions are the ones which I'd also need to change.

http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?2eea78b298.jpg



presumably if I maintained certain parameters like compression ratio and flare rate the sound of the horn would not be too affected?


Edited by biotec - 09 August 2006 at 11:28am
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Mark James View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2006 at 10:09am
dunno but that 2x15" straight horn contour just showed does look like it could be er well, lush!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jethrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2006 at 2:27pm
Walt.. I am very interested in the double 15 straight horn cab you posted above. I think quite a few of us here are looking for something along those lines. Any chance of plans..and even better some discussion on possible improvements/specific characteristics?
Thanks, jeth
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Mark James View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2006 at 9:52pm
ditto above! [pretty please!]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Contour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2006 at 12:17pm
Hello,
 
I was not very happy with that 2x15" design. We only had 1 week to design and build it because King Shiloh Soundsystem wanted to take two of these cabinets out to France the week after. These bins do get very loud en hit where they need to but the cabinets had some resonances in them. I think a strong bracing in each hornmouth would give quite some improvement. Our prototypes were loaded with some new B&C neo drivers by the way.
 
While this design looks nice, it has quite some wasted space inside. It simply is not an elegant as the X-tro folding. I think some redesign must be done to make this a good cabinet. But I do not have the time to do that this moment.
 
Here is the plan with some bracing added (example):
 
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4439/forum1wc9.jpg
 
Best regards,
 
Walt


Edited by Contour - 13 August 2006 at 12:34pm
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Mark James View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2006 at 1:07pm
any other sugestions [other than bracing]
meight be worth prototyping with mdf and some kappa 15s.....
THANK YOU WALT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MixMan X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2006 at 11:03am
All this talk about resigning the Xtro and splitting it up to avoid comb filtering, why not simply angle the 8" and compression drivers and have a specific left and right driver for each stack? If you were really clever you could even construct some sort of adjustable system where you could angle the drivers as required.
 
Just an idea...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jethrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 7:33pm
Walt.. Apologies but I don't want to forget that straight horn double 15"  idea...
Forgive my relative ignorance, but I don't see why that design would have more problems with resonance than the xtro's slightly folded horn.. They both have the same internal dimensions, no? Only difference is the xtros slight fold and the asymetrical rear chamber.
Could resonance problems be avoided by making the sides flared, rather than parallel?
I need something with decent kick, that will cover the range of the xtro 15 section, but in a seperate box..preferably crossing lower than neverwinters recent kickhorn to the subs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Contour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 12:12pm
Please read back on my posts, I have explained somewhere why such a design will not work without some modicifations.
 
The beautiful thing about the X-tro 2x15" section folding is that it leaves just enough place for the midhorn section. Eliminating this aspect will destroy the main thought about this 2x15" section and leaving to much unused space in the design.
 
By the way,  member 'Neverwinter' on this forum is developing a new straight midbass horn. Perhaps you can look into that. If I remember correctly this horn will play up to 300-400Hz.
 
Best regards,
 
Walt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jethrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2006 at 5:35pm
Sorry Contour if you feel I was peastering you with questions already answered.
I'm aware of Neverwinters kickhorn plans, but probably in need of something that will go that little lower stacked in two's (or double cabs)..
 
My real question, out of interest and a desire to increase my limited understanding, was why the straight horn presents greater resonance/standing wave problems than the x-tro fold, as I can't get my head round that at the moment.
 
As far as wasted space in cabs, doesn't always matter to some of us. As long as the cab covers the required range nicely, is stackable and fits in the van, all is good.
 
 
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