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Wiring 2 speakers and a tweeter

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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 July 2012 at 10:58pm
Hi there all you experienced speaker-people, I want to join your club and I need your help! So...

It's with a certain amount of embarassment that my first post is probably one of the simplest things you can achieve, but for a week now I've been googling the WWW for exactly what I've posted in the thread title, and the result?? Nothing that helps someone of my experience, which is more PA setting-up with the band I play with plus a basic understanding of Ohms and speaker tolerance together with cabling. Before anyone jumps to any conclusions I've even bought a book on speaker building and I understood the cabinet building and the speaker selection bits, but the wiring flew right above my head. The parallel and series wiring was straight forward, but anything more complicated was beyond me, unfortunately. Bearing in mind I can set up our full, 3-way 5Kw PA system (purchased, not built) without any worries, but I'm wanting to build some speaker cabinets to get the most out of our amplifiers, which the present speakers do not. So having replaced the sub-woofers last week (easiest of the jobs), replacing the 20-year-old McCauley 400W @ 8 Ohm speakers with 2 Eminence Kilomax 18, 1300W @ 4 Ohm - it's given our PA system an instant 1.8Kw increase. The amps can handle it because we have 3 x Peavey PV3800 which can throw out 1300W per side @ 4 Ohms.

So, my problem lies in wanting to build a mid range speaker cabinet (woodwork sorted) that will house 2 x 15" 500W speakers @ 8 Ohms and a 45W 1" Tweeter @ 8 Ohms (all Eminence). I'm trying to build a 1000W 4 Ohm cabinet for the mid-range Peavey PV3800. My idea was to link all the speakers and tweeter in parallel thus reducing the speakers to a 4 Ohm load and getting the full power out of the amp. I know how to wire the two speakers in parallel ( + to + & - to -) but how to incorporate a tweeter in that circuit, I have no idea. I know a crossover of some sort is required, but where it goes, what type it should be, I'm totally lost.

That's basically it and I'm sorry for the ramblings, if I could have found this info on a website somewhere I would have, and saved you the bother of answering the ramblings of a Welsh man.

Thank you for reading and if you have the answer, thank you once more Confused
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 2:57am
Hi.

If you are looking for a simplistic method, buy a capacitor. Attach the capacitor between the positive terminal of the tweeter and, positive wire of the loudspeaker cable.

Pending on where you would like your tweeter crossed, you can purchase one of the following capacitors:

These are rough estimate figures

5.0uF = 4 kHz

4.0uF = 5 kHz

3.5uF = 5.5 kHz

3uF = 6.5 kHz

2.5uF = 8 kHz

2.0uF = 10 kHz

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?browsemode=category&category=Speaker_Components&masthead=Crossover_Components&subheadnew=Capacitors


Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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lycantheleopard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lycantheleopard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 3:59am
what you are building in escence is a yamaha sm215, uses eminence drivers as well, probably same compression driver but maybe different fifteens.
 
i am going to recomend a few things, having builtand referbeished a lot of boxes justlikeyou are considering here
 
1.  please give model numbers of the eminence speakers chosen for this project.
 
2.  when you refer to a tweeter, i'm guessing your thinking of a horn driver, something like the eminence psd 2002.  these really need a proper crossover and while a simple capasitor will get you there in the end, itsnot the best way to achieve good results.
 
3.  what horn with what dispursion are you going to put on this cab, what kinds of rooms and crowd sizes are you playing for.
 
4.  unless you are dead set on a 1 inch tweeter, i might recomend going to a 2 compression driver, eminence makes one that sounds good and is quite reasonably priced.  this would keep up better for vocals and guitar micing with the subs you already are running.
 
5.  keep in mind that 1300 watt rms rating on the eminence kilamax is a bit inflated, you will want to be a bit careful and understand that it is a good driver, though not imo the end all beat all eminence says it is.
 
6.  did you do any research and modeling to figure out cabinet tuning and such for the fifteens? good performance is not always about slapping a speaker in a box and hoping..though god knows i've done that enough times.
 
have fun, keep slogging along, and realize that your on the right path, there is just a lot more to consider.
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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 8:58am
Thank you guys for such quick and considered replies.

I was looking to load the cabinet (not yet built but have bought 18mm ply in anticipation) with 2 x Eminence Definimax 4015LF or their Kappa Pro - 15A speakers. The super tweeter I was going to use was their APT:200 tweeter, but if you think the 2" driver is a better option then I would bow down to your superior knowledge.  I've put some calcs into an online model program, but if truth be told I didn't really understand what I was reading.

We play to crowds that vary and we use the PA system accordingly. Can play to 500 people in the bigger clubs, but usually to crowds of 150 to 200 in the pubs.

We've got an outdoor festival that I'm organising at the end of August; 300 people outdoors max and all this is really in anticipation of that - so I have 6 weeks or so to sort these speakers out) and other PA work I'm hoping to take on - plud having a general interest in building my own speaker set-up.

Just to clarify, I want to do the same with the tops that I want to replace. So that all the system will be loaded with Eminence speakers. The same principle as the 15's really - loading 2 x Eminence Definimax 4012HO or the Kappa Pro - 12A with a horn/tweeter.

Currently we have the Eminence subs, 2 x Electrovoice ZX5's for the mids and Electrovoice 2 x ZX3's for the tops with digital crossover unit seperating the signal.

Any help with what I'm trying to do is really appreciated, as are the comments to date :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote joshd963 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 9:21am
Hi Andy,
 
I was in the same boat as you... I went for 2x10 inch drivers (8ohm) & a 1 inch tweeter horn (midtops for a lightweight portable club music rig)... all fane components. I finished one of them last night (aside from a lick of paint), I will upload some pics after work.
 
I would recommend using WinISD to calculate the size of box you need... there is a good guide available on the below link... I'm no expert on this program so i'd direct your questions about this program to someone other than myself Tongue
 
 
With regards to an internal crossover, if you already have a digital crossover, it might be much easier to go down the route that i went:
 
I wired the 2 10 inch drivers in parralell to bring the ohm down to 4... my amp prefers this.
 
I then wired the tweeter horn to a seperate plug on the back of the cabinet, and that goes into a different amp for the tweeters.
 
So i have two speakon sockets on the back of my speaker cab - one for the mid drivers and one for the tweeter.
 
You then need to look at crossover points... my drivers worked well cutting the mids out at 4.5khz, and then the tweeter horn kicked in from there all the way up to 20khz...
 
This is much more easily controlled when the signals are split and you can control it all from a digital crossover...
 
Hope this helps a little... please don't hesitate to ask more questions, we have all been in the same boat at some point in our speaker building lives!
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George C View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Hi.


These are rough estimate figures

5.0uF = 4 kHz

4.0uF = 5 kHz

3.5uF = 5.5 kHz

3uF = 6.5 kHz

2.5uF = 8 kHz

2.0uF = 10 kHz


Best Regards,



stupid question probably but -   are these capacitors limited power ratings or could I put them in any cab no matter rating of the cab, I am thinking of  450 W  

thanks  Big smile

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markie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote markie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 3:58pm
In answer to the above,  capacitors have a voltage rating as well as the uF value so you would need caps of at least  250V for a 400 watt cab. having said that a single cap will not give the HF sufficient protection so you would be better of with a 2 way crossover.......... better still go to an active crossover.

Going from a pair of 15s to an APT200 is likely to leave a large hole in the  frequency response, you'd be better off with 10s as suggested above. Most 15s will be losing response from about 1500Hz and the APT doesn't start till 4000Hz.  Also 10s will in general give a much better vocal sound.

In case you don't understand those Hz thingies, the frequency of middle C is about 261Hz and the low C on a guitar (5th string 3rd fret) is 130.5Hz, each time the freq doubles the note goes up 1 full octave....... or each time it halves, the note goes down a full octave.


If it's got wheels or tits it's gonna cost a fortune
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 5:35pm

Originally posted by George C George C wrote:


Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Hi.


These are rough estimate figures

5.0uF = 4 kHz

4.0uF = 5 kHz

3.5uF = 5.5 kHz

3uF = 6.5 kHz

2.5uF = 8 kHz

2.0uF = 10 kHz


Best Regards,


<div id="LCS_336D0C35_8A85_403a_B9D2_65C292C39087_communicationDiv">


stupid question probably but -   are these capacitors limited power ratings or could I put them in any cab no matter rating of the cab, I am thinking of  450 W  

thanks  Big smile




450 watts @ 8 ohms is 60 volts. Anything offering 60 volts or higher will be fine.

Bear in mind the values I wrote are based on an 8-ohm driver. If your drivers are not 8-ohms the frequency next the farad rating will differ.

Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by joshd963 joshd963 wrote:

Hi Andy,
 
I was in the same boat as you... I went for 2x10 inch drivers (8ohm) & a 1 inch tweeter horn (midtops for a lightweight portable club music rig)... all fane components. I finished one of them last night (aside from a lick of paint), I will upload some pics after work.
 
I would recommend using WinISD to calculate the size of box you need... there is a good guide available on the below link... I'm no expert on this program so i'd direct your questions about this program to someone other than myself Tongue
 
http://forum.speakerplans.com/guide-to-winisd-pro-and-hornresp_topic1314. - http://forum.speakerplans.com/guide-to-winisd-pro-and-hornresp_topic1314.html
 
With regards to an internal crossover, if you already have a digital crossover, it might be much easier to go down the route that i went:
 
I wired the 2 10 inch drivers in parralell to bring the ohm down to 4... my amp prefers this.
 
I then wired the tweeter horn to a seperate plug on the back of the cabinet, and that goes into a different amp for the tweeters.
 
So i have two speakon sockets on the back of my speaker cab - one for the mid drivers and one for the tweeter.
 
You then need to look at crossover points... my drivers worked well cutting the mids out at 4.5khz, and then the tweeter horn kicked in from there all the way up to 20khz...
 
This is much more easily controlled when the signals are split and you can control it all from a digital crossover...
 
Hope this helps a little... please don't hesitate to ask more questions, we have all been in the same boat at some point in our speaker building lives!


Hi Josh and thank you for your support.

The problem I have with the crossover unit is that it has 6 outputs, so I can't spare any just for the HFs. I'll definately check out WinISD - if it's easy to understand then fantastic, will be good for me because I want to build the cabinet to maximise the speakers.
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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by markie markie wrote:

In answer to the above,  capacitors have a voltage rating as well as the uF value so you would need caps of at least  250V for a 400 watt cab. having said that a single cap will not give the HF sufficient protection so you would be better of with a 2 way crossover.......... better still go to an active crossover.

Going from a pair of 15s to an APT200 is likely to leave a large hole in the  frequency response, you'd be better off with 10s as suggested above. Most 15s will be losing response from about 1500Hz and the APT doesn't start till 4000Hz.  Also 10s will in general give a much better vocal sound.

In case you don't understand those Hz thingies, the frequency of middle C is about 261Hz and the low C on a guitar (5th string 3rd fret) is 130.5Hz, each time the freq doubles the note goes up 1 full octave....... or each time it halves, the note goes down a full octave.




Well if it leaves a hole in the frequency  I don't have a problem going for the Eminence HF Drivers. They advertise the PSD:3006-8 on the site which is a 2" 100W HF Driver with the following specification:

Specification
Throat Size2", 50.8mm
Nominal Impedance*8 ohms
Power Rating**100W @ 800Hz
Free Air Resonace0.47kHz
Usable Frequency Range800Hz-20kHz
Sensitivity***109dB (1W/1m across 800Hz-20kHz)
Magnet Weight80oz, 2.27kg
Voice Coil Diameter3" / 76.2mm

I can see that the frequency range of the above overlaps the 15's so I'm assuming this would be an option?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lycantheleopard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 7:21pm
the ev cabs you have right now are actually very fine speakers and you arent really getting what they can fully do by using one pair as mids and one pair as tops, unless half of each is blown out lol..then your doing it right with what you have.
 
if i was you, with what you own, this is what i would do.
 
use two outputs of your crossover for the eighteens, two more for a pair of eminence capa pro 12s per side, and the final two for a pair of eminence psd3006.  scrap the four way idea, keep it simple, set xover points accordingly, and be loud as all get out, clean and clear, with less cabinets to move.
 
having a four way system is great, when you need it, but live bands dont need it nearly as much as dj/prerecorded music imo and..please dont take this the wrong way, it sounds like your biting off more than you can hold onto with this, and keeping it simpler for starters will net a better result especially if you've got six weeks before they need to be used.
 
down the road you could add four more eighteens and then some dedicate midbass/low midrange cabs with the eminence 4015 lf, but for now..the above is what i would do.
 
some other notes.
 
use a 90 x40 dispursion horn for the psd 3006, when you want to double up this rig later it will be harder to get the angles of two cabs per side right, but for now, its the best option for even coverage in pubs up to outdoors with one set of horns per side.
 
use crossover points of 90 hz lowpass to the eighteens, with a 30 hz highpass as well both 24db butterworth.
 
use crossover points of 110 hz highpass for the 12s and 1.1 khz for the lowpass of the 12s, 24db on the lowend and 18 at the top.  the reason for the gap between the highpass of the 12s or lowpass of the fifteens is that most pa setups tend to energize a room at about 100 hz and this creates a small null where the frequencies are less..meaning less eq and less mud right out of the box.
 
use highpass of 1.2 khz 24 db on the horns, and set the lowpass on the crossover to 20khz or out depending on what it can do.
 
these crossover points would also work if using the eminence cappa pro fifteen, but i really like the sound of 12s better for rock vocals and such.
 
these are starting figures and will get you going quick, then you can play with dropping the hf driver to 800..but dont overlap, if you drop the hf driver down, drop the 12s too.  setting the hf driver a little above 1khz nets you more protection and safety for the driver diafram.
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George C View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 7:26pm
thanks for replies to my 'stupid question', great information, some I knew - lots more confirmed what I thought..... 
 
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