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X1 for techno

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soundsystemdan View Drop Down
Young Croc
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    Posted: 04 April 2005 at 12:04pm
Hello, my first post on this site. Hello dubsuction if you're watching.

I currently have a system consisting of 4 full range cabinets, which are biamped, each with 450w 15" bass reflex and 200w mid/top. Crossover is with a Behringer Ultradrive at 660Hz (I know this is high, but works wonders for midrange clarity).

My point is I want to grow the system, and thought some nice subs would work well, so I was thinking I should building some X1's (just one to start with for practice, then adding to the line up as I can afford).

Would this work well considering music is mainly techno/trance? I love the sub beat rumblings (those how went to Orbit will know what I mean), and favour these over horns for their very low frequency response and ease of construction. also I'm not that bothered about long throw.

I'm considering using the Void V18-1000, also considered B and C 18 TBX 100, probably not though. Any body got any other suggestions with at least 1000W rms handling?
I'd would really like to hear from people who have built these, and what drivers they have used.

And finally.. amplification, looking at running them in parallel pairs using bridged matrix amplifiers output of either 2000W or 3000W, would using the 3000W risk blowing the speakers? I'm fairly responsible with my kit and the difference in price of these amps is fairly insignificant. I do like to run things with a little headroom, because for me sound quality is paramount over loudness (and distortion).

Thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy post, I look forward to your response.

BTW I'm based in Manchester.
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norty303 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 12:10pm
Check the Matrix amps will run 4ohm bridged first if i was you.  the manuals don't give a rating for 2R stereo/4R bridge although i did ask Simon @ Quantum about this and he said they should run ok @ 2.6R and they'd just thermal if not.
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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whitehousejamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 12:14pm

Hi,

Welcome to the speakerplans.com forum.

If you're going to be using the system for Techno / Dance, you want something with a lot of kick in the 80 to 100hz area. Unfortunately, the X1 will only work well up to 80hz, and is only good for 'sub heavy' music.

You will probrably be best to build a stack of HD15s, as Dom has done, load them with either the PD 154 or P Audio C15 500LF driver and power them with about 600watts each.

Hope this helps

Jamie

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Dom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 2:58pm

Techno is all about transient response and for that you need horns. 

I'm currently messing around with a V18-1000 loaded X1 along with the horns but to be honest I often think you just can't beat a huge pile of kick bins...

Some good advice can be found here on an old part of the speakerplans site... http://www.speakerplans.com/page6.html

"It sounded like a million fire engines chasing ten million ambulances through a war zone and it was played at a volume that made the empty chair beside me bleed."
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soundsystemdan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote soundsystemdan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 3:50pm
to Norty 303:
I'm assuming the amp will run 4ohms bridged, based on the the fact i already own a Matrix 3U2000 (a grey thing) which does just that, but I am aware of what assuptions can lead to so I'll check it out.

To whitehjousejamie:
I've played around with my crossover in the 80-160Hz region using two of the 15"reflex cabs, I realise the flaw in this experiment but gave me an idea of what frequency range I want to increase the gain of, and found that i don't want a high gain above about 90Hz as it can sound like an oversized Aiwa mini system with the bass boost turned on (not desirable), but this is out of range for X1. Dom obviously likes the HD15's having 12 of them, but it wouldn't feel right adding speakers to my system that don't go as deep as my 15" reflexes and affording time/money for a whole stack is quite an issue at the moment.
I thought maybe if I used the X1's upto 80Hz this would allow my four 15" reflexes to give a higher output 80-100Hz. What do you reckon?

To Dom:
I'm not sure that HD15's would be the answer for me as I realisticly I think I'll be able to build 4 cabinets (of whatever deesign) over the next 12 months. Roll on summer 2006!! and i don't think they'll go deep enough for my liking with just 4. I do like the look of your stack though, where abouts are you based?

Conclusions so far....
Other designs being considered like 1850 (deeper, flatter response than HD15) and I'll check out dubsuction's 15" folded horns.
I like the sound of reflexes but want more efficiency, and X1 has got too narrow frequency response.

X1 not ruled out though.

Thanks guys, keep it coming.
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Andrew View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 4:43pm

Matrix UKP and STR series are only specified to 8R in bridge mode.

If they really were designed for 4R bridge use, then I would expect Matrix to have included this in their specifications.

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norty303 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 5:14pm

But Simon did confirm with me that they would run lower (STR3000) impedance ok so it might be worth a call to see how he thinks it would fare.  The manual is hardly the most enlightening piece of literature and maybe they couldn't be bothered to print that much....

For what it's worth my Matrix hardly runs warm with a <4ohm load on it run flat out for extended periods so i think there's some room for experimenting

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soundsystemdan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote soundsystemdan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 5:24pm
Norty,
I've just been reading another thread on which you featured,(spent all day researching this, I'll get on with my uni work tomorrow) started by dubsuction asking about Warroir amps, it seems you already have the amp that I'm looking at, STR3000H?, if it's 1500W per channel at 4ohms then it should give around 1000W per channel at 8ohm, so even at that it would be quite suitable.

You say it might be worth a call.. to who? (pardon me if this is obvious)
And if the amp is run bridged 4ohms when it's not supposed to, what's the worst that could happen?.. assuming levels are kept below clipping and speakers can handle it.


Edited by soundsystemdan
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owentec View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote owentec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 5:26pm

Originally posted by soundsystemdan soundsystemdan wrote:

I'm assuming the amp will run 4ohms bridged, based on the the fact i already own a Matrix 3U2000 (a grey thing) which does just that, but I am aware of what assuptions can lead to so I'll check it out.

Well, keep in mind that the actual impedance of a nominally 4 ohm load varies with frequency and box design... so you might find that some 4 ohm loads might be fine hooked up like that, while others shut the amp down in minutes.

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Dom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2005 at 8:45pm

I'm in Nottingham and if you ever want to hear them the best bet is come to Pure Filth (www.pure-filth.org)

To be honest I don't even own the stack in the picture anymore... They have now gone to good homes with Norty and Mattio...  I currently have 4 double 15" folded horns...  I'll get building some more once the tops are done...  Suppose I should really crack out the camera and update the pics...

You really can't go by the plot of one horn...  There's also not much need to be chasing mega sub response for techno as it's not really there in the program material.

 



Edited by Dom
"It sounded like a million fire engines chasing ten million ambulances through a war zone and it was played at a volume that made the empty chair beside me bleed."
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norty303 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 April 2005 at 6:19am

Quantum are now gone bust but the company who manufactured them is still going http://www.quantumamps.com and they sell their products as 'Pro Sound & Light' on ebay.  Simon Robinson is the owner and he's been very helpful with a number of queries i've had (not to mention doing me a very good deal on some stuff!!  )

Try sending an ebay message first but if not, PM me and i'll give you the showroom number (for some reason they don't advertise it so i don't want to go posting it on the web)

I use mine to run either 2 HD15's a side or a double 18" sub. I asked Simon if it would handle another HD15 a side (2.6R) and he said it should as they were designed as very heavy duty.  Given that my sub runs @ <4R for most of it's useable frequency response i'd say he was about right

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soundsystemdan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote soundsystemdan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 1:26pm
I think I'm going to go for some reflex cabs with PD186 in the end because,
1. X1 is limited upto 80Hz
2. horns, much as people love them, they seem to be good in stacks and in big venues/outdoors, which isn't much good for me as I haven't got much time/money for a stackfull and I don't want to end up with problems in small rooms. As for outdoors I'd prefer not to have long throw to save bothering people who are miles away.

So reflexes, despite their lack of transient response. I've tried many different drivers on Win ISD, started off with 15" but discovered having them in a big cabinet lead to big group delay, the best 18" with short delay was Eminence Sigma Pro but has limited Xmax so it's the PD186.

I'll wait to hear my system with some 18" reflexes I'm borrowing next weekend, see what it's like. But I shall continue this disscussion in a different thread, it's not X1 anymore.

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