band pass subs with 1850s

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   does anyone run their 1850s (or similar FLH) with deep tuned sub boxes for below the cutoff? I have been toying with the idea of making a couple powerful 6th order band passes to run from 30 to 60ish hz. Horns just get huge trying to go under 50.
I love my 1850s for the way they sound, but I sense that the room would feel better with some proper sub frequencies. The problem with the 1850s for me is that they are too efficient in the midbass and kick range and even though I am getting some respectable output even below cutoff, it is diminished in effect by the extra efficiency up high (above 100hz), so I end up processing away a lot of what the speaker does best chasing the low lows. With some proper BP6 subs, or even reflex tuned and also run very low will round out the sound well and then I can back off of the 1850s a little and play them a little higher and use that efficiency better.

I recognize the challenges in processing the two types together and the differences in phase and timing, but I am just trying to see if anyone else is doing this with any measure of success. I could just build four more 1850s, but my system is already loud enough, and I think I can improve the experience with smaller (though still pretty big) subby subs.

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b grade Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 05 October 2012 Location: Portland OR USA Status: Offline Points: 1337	Post Options Post Reply Quote b grade Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: band pass subs with 1850s Posted: 06 May 2015 at 9:26pm
	does anyone run their 1850s (or similar FLH) with deep tuned sub boxes for below the cutoff? I have been toying with the idea of making a couple powerful 6th order band passes to run from 30 to 60ish hz. Horns just get huge trying to go under 50. I love my 1850s for the way they sound, but I sense that the room would feel better with some proper sub frequencies. The problem with the 1850s for me is that they are too efficient in the midbass and kick range and even though I am getting some respectable output even below cutoff, it is diminished in effect by the extra efficiency up high (above 100hz), so I end up processing away a lot of what the speaker does best chasing the low lows. With some proper BP6 subs, or even reflex tuned and also run very low will round out the sound well and then I can back off of the 1850s a little and play them a little higher and use that efficiency better. I recognize the challenges in processing the two types together and the differences in phase and timing, but I am just trying to see if anyone else is doing this with any measure of success. I could just build four more 1850s, but my system is already loud enough, and I think I can improve the experience with smaller (though still pretty big) subby subs.

djeddie Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Old Croc Joined: 26 April 2004 Location: Bristol Status: Offline Points: 4124	Post Options Post Reply Quote djeddie Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 May 2015 at 10:25pm
	Personally, I'd go for reflex rather than BP6. Much easier to set up and more universal, as in BP6 cabs can sound "wrong"(?) in certain situations.
	Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards. E=mc² ±3dB

b grade Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 05 October 2012 Location: Portland OR USA Status: Offline Points: 1337	Post Options Post Reply Quote b grade Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 May 2015 at 10:40pm
	Yeah, those extra bits of sensitivity down low are tempting though. I know that a nicely tuned reflex will sound better, and also work well as the entire bass section if I don't need the horns for a smaller gig. Its just such a narrow band that I am going for that it might be worth the experiment. I feel like most people mess up their band pass boxes trying to have a wide band. I just want a narrow but mostly flattish band to add some weight to the loudness I already have.

b grade Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 05 October 2012 Location: Portland OR USA Status: Offline Points: 1337	Post Options Post Reply Quote b grade Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 May 2015 at 10:45pm
	Also the PPSL option is really kind of a hybrid between bandpass and reflex.

pfly Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Old Croc Joined: 25 October 2007 Location: Helsinki, Fin Status: Offline Points: 2828	Post Options Post Reply Quote pfly Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 12:31am
	I've been toying similar ideas. 1850 horn sized 2x18" or 1x21" BP6 tuned really narrowly around 25-50hz octave would make some proper noise. With a bandwidth that narrow and that low it wouldn't "matter" that much how it would sound as the real "sound" of your bass end would be defined more by 1850 horn as it would play wider band and also higher band that our hearing is more accurate. Also, my gut feeling says, with so narrow band there would not be THAT big difference in time behaviour between 25hz and 50hz so once timed together with 1850 there could be some potentially interesting results.

toastyghost Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10894	Post Options Post Reply Quote toastyghost Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 1:13am
	Void tried it with a dual 21" BP6 - the Arcline VLF. It sounded good but didn't sell, simply took too much power for a narrow band, and the cost of drivers made it quite expensive compared to just using boxes that went to 30Hz anyway. If you are keen, you could have a look at that. Not being tied to the rather tiny arcline x footprint may give you some trade offs in drivers and such.

KidCreole Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Old Croc Joined: 06 November 2013 Location: London (East) Status: Offline Points: 3599	Post Options Post Reply Quote KidCreole Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 2:22am
	Trouble is with designs like that, they rarely come on during the event
	Mykey Wattco

bitSmasher Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Old Croc Joined: 23 June 2012 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 2289	Post Options Post Reply Quote bitSmasher Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 3:08am
	Borrow from the J Infra?

b grade Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 05 October 2012 Location: Portland OR USA Status: Offline Points: 1337	Post Options Post Reply Quote b grade Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 6:50am
	yeah, I don't expect or even want much of a change in my sound. I just need something that can lean in with the sub when the music wants it. I think it will be worth it to try.

Peter Jan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 16 December 2008 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1014	Post Options Post Reply Quote Peter Jan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 10:26am
	The trouble with that region is that any BR or 6th BP that really drops to about 30-35 Hz at full swing, gets about as big as a FLH solution. You will need something like two double 18" BR cabs, each the size of one 1850 horn, to get on par with that one 1850 horn.

immortal Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Registered User Joined: 07 January 2013 Location: Sheffield Status: Offline Points: 460	Post Options Post Reply Quote immortal Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 11:47am
	I designed a series tuned 6th order bandpass that was -3db at ~26hz had a sensitivity of 96db and was around the same size as a 1850. it did however need four v18 and a lot of power per box :S
	Cemetery Sounds

toastyghost Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10894	Post Options Post Reply Quote toastyghost Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 May 2015 at 12:48pm
	The Void Arcline VLF had two driver options, but the best one needed 2x B&C 21SW152 per box. Have a look at the list price on those and then you may reconsider An off-the-shelf solution may be the Ohm TRS INFRA, you could put one per side and just about fit two 1850 horns wide on it I think? Edited by toastyghost - 07 May 2015 at 12:49pm