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Beyma 12LX60 in Punisher

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Peter Jan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 February 2009 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by massisoda massisoda wrote:

Yeah Peter what do you think about ?
12TBX100
http://www.bcspeakers.com/product.php?id=0000000046


Looks like a good one !
Or the 12NW100 ...
 



Edited by Peter Jan - 05 February 2009 at 8:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote massisoda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2009 at 8:20am
good notice for Italians

after many pression on the Ciare Forum the Ciare 12.00SW will be commericalised with the name PW12.00SW
Italian Sound
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomschute Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2009 at 10:15am
Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk
www.stableaudio.co.uk
Speaker Building Services
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2010 at 7:34pm
The LX60 mkII came out recently; out has anybody tried them in puns yet?
Don't test the champignon sound
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkmatter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2010 at 8:21pm
Haven't tried them but here's a sim. Black LX60v2, grey LX60v1. In 1pi, single cab 2.83v input.



My guess is that as with the v1, an LX60v2 loaded punisher would still not be suitable as a sub and would need something under it.


Edited by darkmatter - 01 June 2010 at 8:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2014 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by Peter Jan Peter Jan wrote:

Originally posted by darkmatter darkmatter wrote:

Anyone tried this? Sims slightly better than the Ciare in terms of being more sensitive, flatter freq response and group delay, drops lower with the same input. Downside is higher displacement for the same input power and lower xmax, meaning a possible 3db maximum power disadvantage.

Cones seem to be built very differently when I've got the speakers sitting next to each other, but the cooling on the Beyma does seem pretty good, so it's hard to know how much this would affect power compression and long term reliability.

I'll give this a try when my punishers arrive and post up some results...


I tested the 12LX60, 12P1000Nd and the JBL 2206 in a Punishers a while back. I used 8 Punishers and compared 4 by 4 each test with a variety of music.
The sensitivity advantage is very noticeable compared to the Ciare 12.00SW. You get about 4-5dB more output from the Beyma's and the JBL's from about 50 Hz and up. Below that the Ciare comes on par with the other three and at about 40 Hz, the Ciare has a slight advantage, but that comes at the expense of using up the X-max of the Ciare and you need A LOT of power in that region. The horn is not long enough to "load" the speaker from about 45-50Hz and down, you are running on the verge of being horn unloaded. If your intention is to use only Punishers and nothing below like reflex subs, longer horns or bandpass subs, than you're better off using the 12.00SW. You'll need more powerfull amps to get the job done and a steep HP filtering at about 45Hz to keep them from burning up and bottoming out.
If you intend to use extra subs to cover the lowest octave, than you're far better with 12LX60, 12P1000 or the 2206 and an HP filter at something between 50-55Hz. If used that way, the Punishers are practically unbeatable in terms of size-power-SPL. Another plus for the Beyma 12LX60 is that it sounds nice and smooth way up in the hundred Hz's, something the Ciare won't do due to it's high'ish Le and a thick, heavy cone. The practical upper limit with the Ciare is about 100-110Hz, above they sound horrible. 12P1000 also runs pretty high with good sound, but less than the 12LX60. The weight of the neo speaker might be a plus. The JBL 2206 is almost the same as the 12LX60 in sound, different types of music revealed very little differences between the two or the three if you take the 12P1000 also to compare.
I think it boils down to what your intended use will be and/or the style of music you want to use it for. For pure DJ work and dance, trance style music, I would go for Ciare speakers. But if the whole system is intended for live work and must be all-round useable, than I would choose 12LX60 speakers and real (lowest octave) subs with it. The 100Hz+ capability can also be very usefull, depending on what type of mid-top cabinets you have to work with them.
 


Hi Peter,  do you still have 12LX60 in your punishers?  Did you have any issues with the high loading on the cones?  How hard have you been pushing them?  I have punishers loaded with Ciare 12SW and i have wanted to try some other drivers in there, i have an 18sound 12LW1400 and a B&C TBX100 and i was considering buying a 12LX60 and doing some testing.  Cheers.  James
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Peter Jan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2014 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:


Hi Peter,  do you still have 12LX60 in your punishers?  Did you have any issues with the high loading on the cones?  How hard have you been pushing them?  I have punishers loaded with Ciare 12SW and i have wanted to try some other drivers in there, i have an 18sound 12LW1400 and a B&C TBX100 and i was considering buying a 12LX60 and doing some testing.  Cheers.  James


Sold them some years ago, but I do get some feedback from the current owner once in a while. He once burned up a few 12LX60 voicecoils (something to do with bridged amps, carnival, etc.. LOL), but never had problem with the cones.

Whether other speakers are a better choice or not, depends on how you use them.
The 12.00SW has the edge below 50-55 Hz and if used without true subs, it still is about the only speaker I know (in the Punisher) that can deliver down to 40-45 Hz. It takes big power to get it there and uses up that huge excursion capability, but it does the job, where most other speakers bottom out or burn up if fed the same power that low.
As said earlier, if you have dedicated subs to go under the Punisher, other speakers (other than 12.00SW) are a better choice and give you a bit more freedom in the Punisher's high crossover point. When I used them with 12LX60, I let them start at about 50-55 Hz and BR subs overlap up to 60-80 Hz. Depending on what style music the gig was or how much "punch" I wanted to get out of the system, I played around with that overlapping region.
12LX60 is certainly not the only useable 12" for the Punisher. Back than I tested a few candidates that were handy for me to get, but any decent 12" with high(ish) BL, Q's around 0.3 and an Xmax of 7 mm and higher, can do the job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2014 at 9:31pm
Cheers Peter,  TBH im more thinking about designing a 12" FLH running 40Hz-120Hz and i think trying some different drivers in my existing punishers will be a good place to start to see what drivers will play up that high without sacrificeing too much extension, and hopefully find the one that fits the bill, i have a few on hand so i might as well.  Did you say on another forum that they could reach 40Hz in multiples with the 12LX60?  I think ideally im probably looking for something in between the 2...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2014 at 12:12pm
what about the faital 12HP1060 ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2014 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Cheers Peter,  TBH im more thinking about designing a 12" FLH running 40Hz-120Hz and i think trying some different drivers in my existing punishers will be a good place to start to see what drivers will play up that high without sacrificeing too much extension, and hopefully find the one that fits the bill, i have a few on hand so i might as well.  Did you say on another forum that they could reach 40Hz in multiples with the 12LX60?  I think ideally im probably looking for something in between the 2...

Even in another larger and longer FLH and used in multiples, you'll be hard pressed to find a speaker that does as good a job as the 12.00SW in the lower regions. If you're talking ~50-55 Hz and up, the choice is almost endless and you don't need a larger/longer FLH to make it work good.
12LX60 or similar speakers do reach down to 40 Hz, but not as efficient as the 12.00SW. To match the 12.00SW with any other speakers in the Punisher, you need to EQ several dB and that takes power and more power is something you don't want in such a small rear chamber. No problem with 3-400 Watts or so, but I still have to meet someone who does not feed his/her Punisher(s) with +1000 Watts a piece Wink. The 12.00SW is not a very efficient speaker by far, but it's set of parameters make it perform better (for the same power) by a few dB in the lower regions, compared to speakers that are more efficient on paper. The problem with speakers efficiency figures is that it's always an average figure, it says nothing about were the most efficiency is situated in combination with a certain style cabinet, tuning, etc..
On the high side, I would say try those speakers you have on hand and compare with the 12.00SW up to 120 Hz and over. For me that was about the highest I would take the 12.00SW in the Punisher, but maybe it might work for you. Other speakers worked better higher up, but not by much. The design of the Punisher with the speaker firing on a 90° angle into the horn is the limiting factor for good high extension, but I think high extension in the hundreds was not a goal when Walt designed it. If you want that, the speaker has to fire straight into the horn and have gentle 90° bends, no 180° folds.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2014 at 10:30am
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

what about the faital 12HP1060 ?

Same "problem" going on as I said before :
Quote
The 12.00SW is not a very efficient speaker by far, but it's set of parameters make it perform better (for the same power) by a few dB in the lower regions, compared to speakers that are more efficient on paper. ...

Another thing to keep in mind is that Xmax figure. Ciare does give the true figure, not so called mathematical calculated figure. Calculated the same way, the 12.00SW would have something close to 15 mm Xmax. Comparing apples with apples...

Now if you want to know how good (or bad) any speaker does in the Punisher, first thing to do is at least sim it in Hornresp and weed out those that are not suitable.


Edited by Peter Jan - 13 June 2014 at 10:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2014 at 2:00pm
I dont run my punishers with 1000W+Wink but i dont like getting close to the edge.   Ive tried running the 12SW higher but i think a lowpass at 90Hz is the best way to run them, 120Hz is pushing it a bit too far imo, The TBX100 looks good on paper, ill try it and the 12LW1400 and have a listen and take some measurements. 
I know what you mean the 12SW has the most displacement, but i would accept a drop in mehanical power handleing if i could run 40-120Hz and sound good doing it.  The Fane Colossus 12XB looks worth considering also, only has a 3 inch coil but the 8.5mm overhang is more than the Beyma, 18sound  and the B&C, but they would be likely displacement limited running down to 40Hz anyway, Fane has much lower MMS so should be better higher up.  I will simulate them all later and weed out the ones that are too far off, i suspect the beyma wont work.  Fane looks promising...        
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