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Danley BC series (BC215, BC415, BC218)

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Keen View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2024 at 2:02am
How are you comparing the opening to a drive unit? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2024 at 5:49am
Originally posted by fudge22 fudge22 wrote:

Quote As I understand it the main point of this approach is that when two boxes are  together with their large side facing forwards (in other words placed on their edge) and the relatively small openings placed together in the centre on the ground, the large outside front face of the combined boxes becomes part of the horn. Therefore it seems appropriate to simulate the arrangement by including this extra section. Effectively the full length from the ground to the top of the box. The effective horn mouth also dramatically increases and imo should be simulated as such. 

In the case of the patent image it’s 1.5m inside the box then the extra 1m for the external boundary. As I suggested building a design that’s 1220x1220x810 (to make efficient use of ply wood dimensions) which is a bigger physical box than the box in the patent, then horn path in this case would extend beyond the 3m mark.


The physical opening in the cabinet is too small for this design to be considered as a horn. For the radiation impedance to be to be nearly resistive the effective circumference needs to be greater than one wavelength of the lowest frequency reproduced. A square mouth can be considered to have a circumference equal to a circle of the same area. It is difficult to achieve this in a practical horn which has to be moved, hence the use of multiple horns.

At low frequencies, this is more like a tuned pipe, and the end correction is usually taken as 0.6r, where r is the radius of the pipe. Where the end of the pipe is flanged (as with this design) the end correction goes up to 0.8r At best the the effective length is about 0.25m longer than the physical length.

You might also consider reading up on flare rates and cutoff frequencies. If you put a drive unit in the middle of a 2m square board, you wouldn't model it as a horn with length 1m.
Sweet technical flex Fudge, but to me it’s a simple horn. The path is expanding inside the box, the cross sectional area of the combined horn paths transitions into the opening which shares the appropriate cross sectional area for that point in the horn to continue expanding through the opening, then the horn continues to expand with the front face of the boxes and the ground until it hits the edge. Complicate it all you like but to me it’s very straight forward. Or bent, as it were ;) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2024 at 2:21pm
I should have been more clear that this is not trying to create the boundary control design rather just use some of the obvious beneficial aspects of the idea. 

For example I couldn’t ever understand why the cross sectional area of the horn paths inside the box just before the opening were bigger than the cross sectional area of the opening. This is probably some super technical aspect of those designs that I obviously don’t understand, or maybe it’s not and it’s just the way they build them because it doesn’t matter much, who knows…

Anyway I became much more interested in designing the layout so the last parts of the horn inside the box both have a cross sectional area equal to that of just under half the size of the opening (which you can see, btw, roborg had also come to that conclusion if you study those pictures). That way it’s all just another fold in the horn. This actually gave space to add more folds inside the box. (As this somewhat contradicts a previous point I was making regarding losing a fold in return for easier driver loading, I should say that I hadn’t realised at the time because I hadn’t looked at the plans for so long but also that my general feeling when working with these ideas was that indeed achieving a suitable horn length is not a problem at all here. Also I was addressing PTSD and I would have got more into those details later on as I did mention briefly. So apologies for somewhat contradicting myself there) 

More importantly, all of these ideas came together in a perfectly reasonable and simulatable (if that’s a word) way and in a box size that was very friendly to a sheet of ply. I’m confident it would work in this arrangement and the sims are stunning. Perhaps it’s not as technically savvy as some may require it to be to meet their standards but that doesn’t worry me at all. As long as the physical model is translated accurately to the simulation software which as far as I can see, it is, then it’s worth building. Call it the non technical external ground guidance sub. lol



Edited by Keen - 02 September 2024 at 2:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote fudge22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2024 at 8:00pm
Quote How are you comparing the opening to a drive unit?


The acoustical impedance at the mouth of the horn is usually assumed to be the same as that of a piston in an infinite baffle.

Quote For example I couldn’t ever understand why the cross sectional area of the horn paths inside the box just before the opening were bigger than the cross sectional area of the opening. This is probably some super technical aspect of those designs that I obviously don’t understand, or maybe it’s not and it’s just the way they build them because it doesn’t matter much, who knows…


I would tend towards maybe it's not. However mass loaded quater wavelength pipes are a thing.

Quote As long as the physical model is translated accurately to the simulation software which as far as I can see, it is, then it’s worth building.


In this design, if you consider the the external surface of the cabinet and the ground as parts of the horn, that horn has two sides missing. There is no boundrary to define the crosssectional area as you move away from the opening in the cabinetm so how do you model it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Contour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2024 at 9:15pm
By stacking two cabinets you add a fictive third wall, effectively each cabinet sees a small room corner section, which has a rapid expansion but can be seen as a horn i suppose. This explains why in the BDeap the last part of the horn expands quickly, to match flare rate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2024 at 11:05pm
Yeah, it’s only got two sides but because it’s big enough the sound travels an extra metre before it knows any difference between that and a rapidly expanding flare rate. I imagine a bubble coming out of the opening and popping when it gets to the edge.



Edited by Keen - 03 September 2024 at 1:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PTSD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2024 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

Actually I have already spent many hours optimising both a 412 and 612 version of these subs and drawn the plans to suit. I draw the plans up by hand on grid graph paper to a variety of scales. The next step is to turn that plan into a virtual plan. I have never done this but perhaps you would be interested.
I could email you pictures of my plans. I’m reluctant to put stuff up on here because of those Chinese’s thief’s. 


If you like I could maybe try to translate it into a cad drawing and prepare it for AKABAK I am also no expert so at some point would also require some help figuring out how to get it fully correct. But in theory I could model in there also the case for 2 or even 4 subwoofers togather.

We could also keep the actual files and drawings by email... If you don't like to have it online untill maybe the plan gets more complete and it makes sense getting more input from the community.

Ofcause I would just take first a look to see if it's something I imagine because for me especially scalability is important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PTSD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2024 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by fudge22 fudge22 wrote:

Quote How are you comparing the opening to a drive unit?


The acoustical impedance at the mouth of the horn is usually assumed to be the same as that of a piston in an infinite baffle.

Quote For example I couldn’t ever understand why the cross sectional area of the horn paths inside the box just before the opening were bigger than the cross sectional area of the opening. This is probably some super technical aspect of those designs that I obviously don’t understand, or maybe it’s not and it’s just the way they build them because it doesn’t matter much, who knows…


I would tend towards maybe it's not. However mass loaded quater wavelength pipes are a thing.

Quote As long as the physical model is translated accurately to the simulation software which as far as I can see, it is, then it’s worth building.


In this design, if you consider the the external surface of the cabinet and the ground as parts of the horn, that horn has two sides missing. There is no boundrary to define the crosssectional area as you move away from the opening in the cabinetm so how do you model it?



Would you tho not get a way worse QW step response if it was a quarter wavelength pipe ? Because don't know any quarter wavelength pipe sub that is able to play this high without high distortion  but maybe I am confusing some things atm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fudge22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2024 at 9:29pm
Having now read the patent, rather than just viewing an isolated image, it is now more apparent how the external surface increases the length of the horn; although I would dispute the claimed 1m extra. I couldn’t see a reason given for the reduction in area at the exit of the cabinet, so not an ideal horn.

However, I can’t think of any occasion at live events that I have been involved with, where this setup could have been used. There can be very few occasions where this design can be used to it’s full potential.

With regards to the claim in the patent that existing sound equipment does not take account of its physical surroundings, I can’t believe that they are unaware of Mr Paul Klipsch and his 1945 patent. The idea behind this design is not new.

Some of the technical information appears to have been lifted from Dinsdale’s series of 1974 Wireless World articles. Other claims are misleading and some information is technically incorrect.

Most of the supposed benefits of this design can be obtained with any loudspeaker by placing them against a wall, or in a corner.
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