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dual Kilomax 18A horn pics and olans
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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Points: 7844 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2007 at 6:26pm
Can you post the plans please?
Marjan Milosevic
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logsquared View Drop Down
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The design is nice but doesnt that design destroy those 18s in seconds, the pressure in that throat must be pretty extreme?
 
     the kilomax is very solid driver.  it has a strong cone and two spiders.  one spider is in the normal place the other is where the dust cap normaly goes.  yes, the pressure is extreme.  about 1 to 4 compresiion ratio.  never lost a driver in these boxes.
 

Thats also a lot of weight and a pretty short horn path length for the size of driver by the looks of it. 105 or 106dB average is pretty good and the response is quite flat to 40Hz but I reckon you could get the same with a pair of 15s or 12s in a much smaller box

true, the boxes are really heavy.  11 feet of horn is short?  remember the plot is with one box.  put three plus boxes together and you can do 30hz no problem.  you could use 15s or 12s.  but, to get the low freq extension the box still has to be very big and in multiples.

Ive seen kilomax used in horns and reflexes before and the 1000W is a bit of an overstatement, that massive heat sink aint for nothing! While it may take 1000W a sound engineer friend of mine did some tests and you dont really get any improvement over 500-600W, certainly not the 3dB you would expect to get, more like 0.5dB or 1dB

these boxes load the driver good 1000w each drivers is no problem.  the kilomax heatsink very good.  even after a 8hr rave with near clip drum and bass with one box per channel on a 9001  power compression is very low.  i can check the relative temp by just reaching in to the driver compartment and feeling the magnet.  usually they only get slightly warm.  i realize if you put a 1000w sine wave to the box for 8hrs straight they would heat up more.  luckly, i don't know any music with that kind of average power.  when your friend tested the kilos were they in reflex boxes?  ifso, he was probably driving the woofers past the Xmax.  while they didn't bottom out the coils were outside the magnetic gap. 
 
BTW  i did a show a few years ago with my old version (only one driver per box).  the room was small, about 80 X 80.  i used three of the single driver subs per side on a bridged CE4000 per side.  another sound company did the adjacent room of the same size.  he had eaw kf850 subs.   2 per side with one qsc pl6 per side.  he thought he could do more in spl.  i happened to have my spl meter with me.  so, it was on.  i think we used a madonna cd for the test.  about 30 or so feet from the stack he did 125-126.  my room with the same track did 131-132 at the same distance.  not real scientific but fun no less.  the sound of clipping qsc's and bottoming drivers on the 850s didn't sound to good either.
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VECTORDJ View Drop Down
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Points: 585 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VECTORDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 February 2007 at 10:21pm
Very cool. Why leave the rear chamber open? The Klipsch papers study the improved low output with a given driver when the rear chamber is sealed. Most folded horns use a sealed chamber based on these ideas. Some use a ported chamber(18W design). Very few have left the door off (Bassmax). Have you tried your design with the chamber sealed? Please post some drawings so we can see how big these beast are. VECTORDJ
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Disco Stu View Drop Down
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Points: 2492 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Disco Stu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2007 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by logsquared logsquared wrote:

when your friend tested the kilos were they in reflex boxes?  ifso, he was probably driving the woofers past the Xmax.  while they didn't bottom out the coils were outside the magnetic gap. 


Yeah standard reflex box test, im aware there is a significant difference when used in horns

He ended up using the omega 18s in his boxes, the difference between those and the kilomaxes was very small in that situation, this is before they introduced the magnums which probably leave the omegas for dead.

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freddi View Drop Down
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Points: 60 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote freddi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2007 at 2:10pm
--look awesome and well made - what are the tops?

is the path like follows and might you post a drawing? - (or basic dimensions assuming it follows this fold)



Edited by freddi - 19 February 2007 at 5:58pm
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Points: 2744 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tb_mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2007 at 5:31pm

If you compare in HORNRESP a scoop and sealed rear chamber horn,of equivalent specs,the scoop unloading below cutoff appears less rapid,with an appropriate subsonic filter,you might have a better characteristic near cutoff for this reason.
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logsquared View Drop Down
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Points: 17 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logsquared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2007 at 6:36pm
He ended up using the omega 18s in his boxes, the difference between those and the kilomaxes was very small in that situation, this is before they introduced the magnums which probably leave the omegas for dead.
 
the omegas are a way better value in a reflex box compaired to the kilos.  you can use a smaller box and less power and get the same results.  haven't really looked at the magnums yet.
 
Why leave the rear chamber open? The Klipsch papers study the improved low output with a given driver when the rear chamber is sealed
 
sorry,  i have not read the klipsch papers.  but, in this design the driver has less excursion below 50Hz.  also, because the horn path is long and the output from the rear of the drivers is much lower than the horns output cancelation is less an isssue.
 
the tops in the picture are my design.  the are loaded with paudio 2226 15s and the paudio 750 2" driver on ev hp64 horns.   they work ok.  my "A system" tops are much differnt.  i may post them later 15 X dual 6" X 2" all horn loaded.  the 750 2" with the ev hp64 do sound sweet.   
 
i think i answered most of the questions.  i did find my original shop plans.  a few notes:  there is peice missing on the upper right corner.   one should be able to figure out where to put it.  the arrows that point in front of the woofers are the distance from the driver hole to the inside corners.  the box needs braces runing the whole lentgh of the horn down the middle.  i used extra braces between the drivers and the plywood on the top above the driver is 1.5 thick.  the box is 22.5 inches wide.  one thing i really really really wish i would have done is make the box 45 inches tall not 48.  when the box is on its back it is only truck pack one dimension.  has lead to a few headaches.  i really should have know better.
 
 
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Points: 17 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote logsquared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2007 at 6:38pm
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woodworking tip.  look at the triangle where the lower woofer mounts.  make your opening 1/2 inch smaller than this and round over both sides or make provisions for a grill.   or, assemble the box and use a flush cutting bit to follow the triangle.  unless you're a master woodworker cutting it out first will lead to some problems.  do this for the top as well.  check out the driver close-up for more detail.
 
-woody
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VECTORDJ View Drop Down
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Thanks for the drawing. It really is BIG.....VECTORDJ
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by logsquared logsquared wrote:

this is my first post on this board.  hope its in the right topic.  seems a lot of people here have said the kilomax 18 can't be used in a horn. 



The biggest issue using the Kilomax 18 in a horn, is having the horn's length too short thus, achieving a good amount of cabinet gain from the small chamber it sits in. No matter how you put it, the QTS is 0.56 and that's not the best woofer when you are using short horns (Anything under 10 feet)

The next issue is the motor strength. Woofers designed for horns use a strong motor strength to withstand the pressure buildup between the baffle board, and the small sealed chamber it sits in. The Kilomax 18 BL Factor is 19.7 Telsa Meters.

Your design is the exception to rule although, I was wondering did you try numerous woofers before leaning towards the Kilomax 18, or did you just buy those.

I remember seeing someone else using the same boxes, but used JBL 2242 in them instead. I believe he was more Home Audio though.

Best Regards,

Edited by Elliot Thompson - 20 February 2007 at 7:13am
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Points: 5992 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2007 at 11:37pm
"The Kilomax 18 BL Factor is 19.7 Telsa Meters. "
 
So Danley didn't have a clue when he designed the Lab12 driver with it's pitiful BL of only 15?
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