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15NW100 BC Horn

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KaphaSound View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 November 2020 at 12:56am
Danley's BC sub horn designs seem to have specs that per cabinet/driver/power out-do pretty much anything else out there right now. Originally after seeing the BC218s I was wondering if the same principle could be applied to some 15inch drivers to lose some weight (BC218s clock in at about 500lbs) size and lose some extension but still remain solid down to 30hz. Since then Danley has released the new BC215 which when used in a stack of 4 has a continuous output rated up to 150db and a +/-3db of 33hz; this is madness. I don't have a need for 150db, but I think I've managed to come up with something that should be able to provide 140db continuous at a reasonably smaller size. The complete horn is designed as 4 cabinets stacked together, here's the attempt simmed in 1pi same as all of Danley's BC measured responses (EDIT Danley’s are measured in 2pi**)






Now I don't have great expertise with horn folding so I'd appreciate some critiques here. This was done in Blender and if there's enough demand I'd be glad to show everyone a walkthrough on how it's done, although I have yet to fully figure out how to export the data for CNCing but it does look like there's a way to do it, and for further context on the mouth and orientation of the horn you can see Citizensc's Akabak sims from an earlier discussion on the topic: https://forum.speakerplans.com/bc-horns-from-standard-flhs_topic105665_page1.html



So some notes; a -3db of about 30.5hz, this max continuous SPL is driven by 1700 watts (that's just 425 watts a driver). Is there any reason that using a fair bit less than the rated power would be a negative? The 15NW is rated 1000 rms, 2000 peak which leaves us quite a bit of headroom for peaks. Displacement however hits xvar of 11mm at 3400 watts which is only 3db of headroom. My question here is what's the risk of hitting 14-16mm of displacement on peaks for 6db of headroom? I'm assuming xmech is substantially above xvar so distortion on peaks if you're really cranking these could be acceptable atleast for a little while. My intention here though is not really to ever run these at max output; 130-137db is probably plenty for my needs (50-500 people max, dub/dubstep/dnb/funk/hip hop/house and pretty much anything else that might use sub around 30hz). Group delay with filters enabled is a bit sub optimal, however this can be reduced to about 35ms at 32hz with LW filters and for most front loaded horns I haven't really seen anything that confidently beats this. Even the new Paraflex designs seem to have similar group delay. Compression ratio is 2.6. Current box dimensions are 46" by 29.8" by 20.5" (I'm really trying to save as much space as possible). Also similar to the BC215 design I'm planning on placing some corner reflectors on the top so I can cut handles directly into the frame. I'm also really hoping these will come in under 150lbs each, but I know this is probably way too optimistic especially with bracing.

SO any thoughts/questions/critiques here? I'm really looking to pull the trigger on buying parts either this week or next. Been learning and planning for about 8 months or so now and would like to have atleast a few of them built before the end of the year, but this is my first ever speaker build project and the last thing I want to do is rush into things and waste about 2-3 gs. Also as just a final note I’ll be cleaning up the precise folding and am curious about the best way to overlap the borders around the bends? Specifically the 180 degree bend you’ll see the sections are a bit sloppy.


Edited by KaphaSound - 23 November 2020 at 10:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2020 at 10:30am
All Danley sub measurements are carried out on a large car park at 10m in 2pi (ground plane) with 28.3V input, then scaled back. It is however designed to be used in pairs, or a single box in a corner for say an install.

Your internals are quite different to the new box, but that’s to be expected. The key thing with these sorts of cabinets is the relationship between the “edge” and the diffraction for the maximum increase in forward energy when stacked.

Hornresp cannot simulate this effect, but there are tools from Tolvan that can. You’ll need to combine it with other data manually however.

For what it’s worth, you want to be aiming for a 9-16dB improvement in forward directivity/output when stacked at the optimal size/box ratio vs a single cabinet. That’s when you know you’re doing something relatively close to a BC loading.

For a lesser effect, albeit still useful, the short lived DBH218LC is maybe worth a look into.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2020 at 3:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2020 at 5:07pm
Ahh was wondering if Danley uses Akabak! If you see Citizensc’s Akabak models linked in the thread above there are some interesting points made and charts with directivity/low corner extension depending on the size of the mouth. I know Danley here is saying that you can’t get a perfect sim of what you will actually measure, but it has been 6 years of updates to the software since that last post and the response behaved as predicted across both programs; the smaller the mouth opening the lower the extension at the cost of some sensitivity and not shown is also the cost of extra group delay. I believe this is the same principle behind the keystone sub as well? Initially I was uncertain if I was over exaggerating the added length by using half the depth of the cabinet since the mouth is on the usual “side” of a flh but the Akabak sims seem to confirm roughly that this is a correct approach. I suspect this “sideways” mouth orientation with the smaller mouth like the dbh218lc plus the central mouth positioning for the extra directivity gains are the secret sauce to this design.

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

All Danley sub measurements are carried out on a large car park at 10m in 2pi (ground plane) with 28.3V input, then scaled back. It is however designed to be used in pairs, or a single box in a corner for say an install.

I believe in the spec sheets you’ll see “measured in 1/2 space” (EDIT 2pi**) with the same voltage and distance you described; my question is and Ivan Beaver sort of briefly explained this to me but why aren’t they simply measured at 1W/1M again? I’m also wondering if they’re saying 1pi simply because of the size of the face of the stack?




Edited by KaphaSound - 23 November 2020 at 10:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kipman725 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2020 at 5:45pm
More expensive but have you considered the 15DS115? it has a bit more xvar.  More recent design as well so has improved BL(x) curve which should mean better linearity within that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2020 at 7:35pm
I haven’t done extensive modeling but it doesn’t seem to sim very well. I haven’t found a way to really flatten it out it’s always very peaky, and a key goal of this project was to keep costs as low as possible so for my needs the 15nw has actually surpassed expectations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2020 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by KaphaSound KaphaSound wrote:

Ahh was wondering if Danley uses Akabak! If you see Citizensc’s Akabak models linked in the thread above there are some interesting points made and charts with directivity/low corner extension depending on the size of the mouth. I know Danley here is saying that you can’t get a perfect sim of what you will actually measure, but it has been 6 years of updates to the software since that last post and the response behaved as predicted across both programs; the smaller the mouth opening the lower the extension at the cost of some sensitivity and not shown is also the cost of extra group delay. I believe this is the same principle behind the keystone sub as well? Initially I was uncertain if I was over exaggerating the added length by using half the depth of the cabinet since the mouth is on the usual “side” of a flh but the Akabak sims seem to confirm roughly that this is a correct approach. I suspect this “sideways” mouth orientation with the smaller mouth like the dbh218lc plus the central mouth positioning for the extra directivity gains are the secret sauce to this design.

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

All Danley sub measurements are carried out on a large car park at 10m in 2pi (ground plane) with 28.3V input, then scaled back. It is however designed to be used in pairs, or a single box in a corner for say an install.

I believe in the spec sheets you’ll see “measured in 1/2 space” (1pi) with the same voltage and distance you described; my question is and Ivan Beaver sort of briefly explained this to me but why aren’t they simply measured at 1W/1M again? I’m also wondering if they’re saying 1pi simply because of the size of the face of the stack?




half space is 2pi and in this case refers to a ground stacked measurement. It is done at 10m because you need to be far enough away that the speaker mouth is approximately a point source.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2020 at 10:06pm
Woops completely overlooked that 1/2 space is indeed 2pi! Even so my real target was actually a low C (32.7hz) and in 2pi this is within the f3 with a continuous output around 137-138db. I’m thinking about taking a shot at Akabak considering that it takes the exact size of the face into account and therefore calculates just how much fractional space loading is taking place, but if this seems like a worthy project please do let me know!

Edited by KaphaSound - 24 November 2020 at 2:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 10:28pm
Just wanted to post some progress on this. I've ordered the driver and all the trimmings and now I just need the wood; pretty set on this design as a prototype but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on bracing or anything else I'm missing. I've switched the fold which has given me the target rear volume of 60 liters including driver volume and I've added some more or less arbitrary pieces including right behind the throat since the length didn't quite line up and any longer would cause some significant changes (it's placed right in the middle so the space behind it isn't wasted); any reason why this style wouldn't be advised? I've also added an L-brace and curved brace right at the mouth based on the Danley designs but I'd love to hear if there's any other suggestions! The reflectors are there so I can cut handles in the top corners not for any particular acoustical purpose as I've read that they are relatively unimportant for sub frequencies.



Here's another angle. The idea again is to use these in stacks of 2s or 4s but a single sub can also be placed against a corner:



6ft Monkey totem for scale: 


Edited by KaphaSound - 28 December 2020 at 3:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2020 at 12:22pm
Looks cool, the big question I have is how the BC part of the BC horn will work. 

Do you have any plans to do a more complex simulation that models the outside of the cabs or prototype the? 

Either way id love to see the graph of a conventional stacking arrangement overlayed with the graph of a BC arrangement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2020 at 3:51pm
I should have my B2F horn prototype built in the next few weeks. Planning to do some experiments with that putting a board over the front and cutting progressively bigger holes in the middle of it. Also going to try pointing it at the ground and putting legs on to lift it up a few inches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KaphaSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2020 at 6:43pm
I’d still love to learn Akabak I just can’t seem to find any tutorials on actually building the cab in the sim just on entering the raw data which you can also export from hornresp. I know in one of the threads above as well Danley mentions that he starts with Akabak but that it doesn’t seem to give the full picture which makes me think it could be worth jumping right into the build. Based on your previous Akabak work Citizensc I’m inclined to believe that hornresp lines up fairly well in terms of varying mouth sizes and their effects on response/group delay/displacement etc but I know the secret sauce to this design is in the forward directivity and potential bubble expansion around the face. As far as the sims go without the optimized cutout on the side it’s the same as we saw with the BG horn about a 3hz loss in extension with marginal (1-2db) increases in spl, and a reduction in group delay as well however the BC version is still well within 1.5 cycles. I’ve actually been experimenting with a vst plugin called disperser which adds group delay and I found the threshold of audibility to be much larger than 1.5 cycles; if anything it took over 4 at 35hz to become significantly perceptible but that’s another post.

Edited by KaphaSound - 29 December 2020 at 6:46pm
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