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Infra bass amplifier on budget

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zilinux View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 September 2023 at 9:41am
Hey all!

After intensive reading of this forum on the subject for 4 days i do think that is better to ask you guys for confirmation before push "Add to cart" button in the shop, so this is my first post :)


I do have an BI-amped audio system which is split in 2 parts, one is for bass duties below 100Hz and second part is do their job from 100Hz UP.
I'm interesting to buy an amplifier which can play well on lowest notes (30Hz or lower) in my small ~17sqm room with a 230v/13A grid.
I do not want much of SPL because i rarely listening music or watching movies on loud levels but i do really need to constantly "feel" that subbass presence even if music plays just as background because i'm kind of "silent SUBbasshead" Big smile I'm not interesting on >30Hz tones, just for low low low frequencies...that what is interesting me. I'm listening mostly electronic - techno, dnb, dubstep and similar bass heavy music.

Currently i do have this plate amplifier:
https://www.speakerpower.net/store/p30/SP1-6000-HT_Subwoofer_Plate_Amplifier. - https://www.speakerpower.net/store/p30/SP1-6000-HT_Subwoofer_Plate_Amplifier.html


It is mounted into my Mark Seaton Submersive HP subwoofer:
https://seaton.net/product/submersivehp/ - https://seatonsound.net/product/submersivehp/

Also i do own an additional HP Slave module of that subwoofer, so this single Speakerpower SP1-6000 amp feeds in total 4 Eminence LAB15 drivers because each of the boxes has 2 loudspeakers like this one:
https://eminence.com/products/lab_15#specifications - https://eminence.com/products/lab_15#specifications

600rms/1200Wprogram
4OHM

These drivers are custom modified for Mark Seaton by Eminence and instead of 6 Ohms they have 4.5 Ohms (have checked that myself with a multimeter)

SpeakerPower SP1-6000 amp operates perfectly good and without issues but...works in mono only. I want to change that. 
My plan is to pull out that plate amplifier and make 2 subwoofer boxes to operate in stereo with an external amp via DSP (which i have already - MiniDSP SHD studio with DIRAC).
Also i do have an BK Electronics Monolith+ active subwoofer which is good on low notes and will be in tandem with those above...

So my question - is there any better, new or used, than "usual suspects"  for a Deep, Low, Powerful, Heavy, walls, floor and skull shattering BASS than:

-Proline 3000
-Audio Crest CA18
-EV P3000 / Dynacord L2400
-Crown MA-5000
-Kind XT4000
-Void Infinite MK2
-QSC MX3000 / JBL MPX1200

Many of those heavyweights are old now and hard enough to find in a good shape, hence first in the list is Proline 3000 which i can buy new here in Europe.
Or is better to look into class D ones? If so, then which one is good enough for sub bass duties below 30Hz? 
I do have some offers for used but in good shape PKN amplifiers (XD4000, XE4000, XE5002, XE6000) but do afraid that they cannot do properly on sub bass tones and are only good for upper frequencies what for me is no go and full stop.

In older posts on this forum i have read that for really low bass frequencies transformer based heavyweight amps are much much better, it is true even today?

So guys, please help me to spend my money wisely and make a right decision which way to go - new T.Amp Proline 3000 or any of used but in good condition PKN amps? Or maybe there is another, even better choice to fulfill my SUBbass-head needs? :)
(Yes, i know there is a bigger brother of Proline 3000 exists - AONE4400, but is unavailable)


So in summary:

Small 17sqm room
4 Subwoofer drivers (each of 600rms/1200program watts, 4OHMS) 
~1000, at very most 1500 euros to feed them.

What are my choices?

Thank you!
Zilvinas
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BrainlessTekno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrainlessTekno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 9:55am
Main problem with amps is that they cant feed subs the wanted power for long, if you dont need to play loud you dont need lots of power, tamps sucks but the prolines are quiet solid (actualy havent played with prolines but when ppl here say its good solution for bass it probably is), they doesnt cost that much and im sure you will be satisfied. In your situation i guess it will be waste of money to buy some super expensive thunderpower amps.

Your bigger problem may be that if you realy intend to have 30hz bass (thats low af) the sub that are able to do it will take half of your room 


Edited by BrainlessTekno - 13 September 2023 at 9:59am
BarSick / barsik soundsystem
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zilinux View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zilinux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 10:35am
Thanks for the answer!

Yes, i know that T.Amps sucks and all is made from cheap parts in China, also do know about particular Proline's 3000 appetite to eat speaker drivers if this amp going into clipping state but i do have read also that this amp has a nice tone for warm and beautiful bass what i'm after for. From my hifi system i'm hoping for a low listening levels but with a bass that can go insanely low.

Also i'm understand what are you saying about size of the subwoofers to reach those depths, but i did choose another way to solve this - both of Mark Seaton's subs are literally about 40-50cm from my ears, one box for left ear and one box for right ear :) This is extremely near-field listening and thus i'm not having much of the loses in sound. Those subs are capable to dig deep down into ~12HZ...

From what i read seems that class D amplifiers is incapable to reach and maintain sound into such a low frequencies, but if this is not true, then i'll be glad because PKN amps are 1U and fits better into my HIFI rack.
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BrainlessTekno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrainlessTekno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 10:42am
not sure where did you get the 12HZ from but it is not true, even 30hz is more of a feeling than hearing. 12hz is unhearable for your ears.

Edited by BrainlessTekno - 13 September 2023 at 10:42am
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zilinux View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zilinux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 10:50am
Originally posted by BrainlessTekno BrainlessTekno wrote:

not sure where did you get the 12HZ from but it is not true, even 30hz is more of a feeling than hearing. 12hz is unhearable for your ears.


https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/subwoofers/seaton-sound-submersive-hpi-subwoofer/

Did get from here and also from personal testing with online frequency generator. And yes, i know that humans can hear till about 20Hz, but thing is that i want to hear and feel, not just hear :)


Edited by zilinux - 13 September 2023 at 10:54am
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BrainlessTekno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrainlessTekno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 10:59am
im prety sure the website is lying. i wouldnt even be impressed if that was true, i would just try to wake up from the wierdest dream. I have a stack of 4 huge 18' horns at home that are made to do bass at huge events and even they cant reach 30hz. So i highly doubt that 15 inchers with the shittiest enclousure can reach 30hz... not speaking about 10 or 15 as they claim to do. Just guessing but i would say thay can do 55hz possibly 50hz. 
BarSick / barsik soundsystem
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 1:36pm
The modern Class D Amplifiers (Not the ones made 20 + years ago) have no problem delivering their power into 10 Hertz continuously. However, your loudspeaker(s) will die before the amplifier ramps into thermal protection. 

Just make sure you are feeding the amplifier 208 - 250 volts if you live in a part of the world where 100 - 120 volts is the standard. 

Best Regards, 
Elliot Thompson
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zilinux View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zilinux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 2:22pm
Probably i do need to be more specific but my English is poor, so sorry. 
OK, let's take one example here:

Let's imagine a sound system with all components connected and ready to play bass heavy music only just the button "Pause" holds the system from doing that. Amplifier "A"(heavyweight) is involved for this time.

Now i'm putting an SPL meter (whatever app from google app store who has possibility to show percepted SPL value on exact frequencies). SPL meter is ON and waiting to measure levels into exact spot at my listening position.
I'm pushing the PLAY button on the sound system and music starts to play.
I'm looking only into 15-30Hz region on a scale of SPL meter and for example it show 90dB at 20Hz.

OK.

Then i'm disconnecting amplifier "A" and in place of that amplifier putting amplifier "B"(class D lightweight).
Music the same, cables the same, speakers the same, overall SPL the same...all the system is absolutely identical to that previous and only amplifier is changed.
Now i'm pushing the button "Play" again and same test track is starting to play.

Question: do the measured SPL levels for a frequency beetwen 15-30Hz will be the same (90dB) on amplifier A (heavyweight) and amplifier B (lightweight)?

But what's even more interesting - do the audible bass will be perceived as the same from amplifier A and amplifier B?

Best regards,
Zilvinas


Edited by zilinux - 13 September 2023 at 2:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 2:37pm
An SPL Meter measures all frequencies within a 20 Hz - 20 kHz region. You need to invest in the proper measuring tools to attain what you are looking for. 

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

The limiting factor will always be the loudspeaker. Not the amplifier. 

Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zilinux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 2:55pm
I do already have an UMIK-1 :)
Also is true that measurements will be on 20Hz-20kHz region but let's not to look what is happening on overall scale of things when measuring and concentrate just in 15-30Hz region. Will the bass differs even in slightest proportion from A and B amplifiers in 15-30Hz region?

If not, then perhaps all the existing amplifiers sounding the same and only difference between them is wattage? :)


Edited by zilinux - 13 September 2023 at 2:58pm
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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by zilinux zilinux wrote:



These drivers are custom modified for Mark Seaton by Eminence and instead of 6 Ohms they have 4.5 Ohms (have checked that myself with a multimeter)



Just to clear this thing here.
You can not measure impedance with a multimeter. What you are measuring is the voice coil resistance. That is not same thing as impedance. 4.5 ohm is the correct resistance value for 6 ohm impedance speaker.
Marjan Milosevic
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zilinux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2023 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by zilinux zilinux wrote:



These drivers are custom modified for Mark Seaton by Eminence and instead of 6 Ohms they have 4.5 Ohms (have checked that myself with a multimeter)



Just to clear this thing here.
You can not measure impedance with a multimeter. What you are measuring is the voice coil resistance. That is not same thing as impedance. 4.5 ohm is the correct resistance value for 6 ohm impedance speaker.


Didn't know that, thanks.
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