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What is the fault with SCOOPS |
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Freddy Hopper 
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 Topic: What is the fault with SCOOPSPosted: 15 November 2007 at 5:05pm |
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I hear all this talk about scoops being this, that and the other. I guess you either love them or hate them. But in simple terms what is the fault in them?
Do they cancell certain frequencies? What is the perfect Xover points for scoops?
We have 6 ASS RX18s and I find they play best cut at 70hz- 80hz, but they always surprise me. They can be playing some tunes and hardly doing a thing and then suddenly a tune comes on and the whole place is shaking.
we have 2 ASS MX121s which are like a triangle shaped scoop they seem to be alot more consistent.
We also have 2 old shortman scoops 1984 and they seem to play everything consistent but no where near as defined in quality.
Has someone got some graphs or simple explanations.
Rog described Scoops as more of an instrument than a speaker, due to there frequency responce. What are your comments Scoop people?
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Freddy Hopper
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 5:09pm |
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Dont quote us on the date of the Shortman's, its what the guy who sold them us said.
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Disco Stu
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Joined: 03 March 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2492 |
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 6:21pm |
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To quote rog from about 5 years ago
"As to scoops, I never use them, never have and never will, they sound sh*t, dont even go there. The output of the scoop is out of phase from the driver so you will never get a good sound"
Since then he has put plans for the superscoopers on the forum and designed the SL scoop and a driver specifically for it, he did comment on I think 12 a side gave a good sound outdoors, but then again thats 12 a side, not many horn loaded cabs are going to give a bad sound with that many
Stu
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All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
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Chris I Rockas
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 6:29pm |
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I'll tell you what's wrong with my S118s. They are phenomenal in the 30 - 40Hz region and they overshadow everything else. When they play those frequencies the venue makes more noise in vibration and rattling than the sound heard from the cabinet. What a problem!
Needless to say, mine are NOT for sale.  |
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Heathrow_B_line
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 6:30pm |
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he also stated that for dub hed have one scoop rather then 20 front loaded horns
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Produce a killer sound. Take no prisoners.
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adambomb
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 7:33pm |
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It's all about the music played on them for me...
Scoops are part of the history and heritage of the roots / dub reggae scene, they pretty much always have been, and I think always will be.
In a Purely technical sense I think the design is flawed for the reason Rog states in the quote above, however the sound they do produce is ideal, and indeed part of the reggae sound system "sound" and because of this simply cannot and should not be replaced (enhanced maybe : dubsub / hog scoop).
For a true and accurate frequency response for live / most prerecorded music I would (and have) look at other designs.. if your a roots/ reggae sound system and you want to have the authentic sound (and appearance, lets face it)... it's got to be scoops.
and I do love the way 4 well designed / built / loaded scoops will wobble you guts and flap your trouser legs... like only scoops seam able to.
I have stood right infront of a doube FK1 Infrabass Horn, like right infront, inside the barrier right in front, leaning on it..in the main dance tent at glasto.. and I think I have percieved heavier bass infront of Jah Tubbys stack - actual SPL dunno).
Just my 2ps worth.
A. Edited by adambomb - 15 November 2007 at 7:37pm |
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TONY.A.S.S.
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 7:42pm |
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I will only say a couple of things here. Speakers are signal dependent and when I read some of the results people get, I do wonder what on earth the're doing sometimes. I can take anyone to a certain club in north London and there you will see 4 scoops per side stacked sideways used in a 3 way system straight into MX600 mid hi cabs. X\O point 120hz. They have a consistant sound and demonstrate( to me anyway) that these cabs are a great one to have if you only have bass and not bass plus sub bass. The problem is, whose cabs are we going to listen to if we want to decide whether these cabs in principal are good or not so good.
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Disco Stu
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 10:11pm |
Lets look at the characteristics of a scoop then to say whats good about it, essentially its a direct radiating woofer, most often an 18" coupled to a long flared port - the woofer alone has its set frequency response mainly based around the chamber directly behind it. The characteristics of a direct radiating woofer are a high audible distortion level in the upper bass which tends to make the bass seem aggressive or middly and tends to subdue the perception of the subbass the woofer is also putting out.
Couple to that now a longish rear loaded horn and you potentially have the recipe for a fine sounding cab, the direct radiator gives the grunt and the horn gives the meat.
However its all in the execution. A badly designed expansion of ANY horn whether rear loaded or not is going to give peaks and nulls, and potentially some honk. Couple to that the ability to need to keep the driver in phase and it probably makes the scoop one of the most difficult to get perfect and I see a lot of scoops that look like they belong in a dustbin.
Somewhere you will get compromises, and most of the time because of the nature of a scoops design its in the unlikely area of the midbass when you use small numbers of cabs, unlike most other horns which end up getting compromised in the sub bass region.
The reason for this is obviously because you have the woofer radiating some of the same frequencies as the port, out of phase (once the sound has travelled the length of the horn)
This is why I suspect Rog has never really liked the sound of a scoop, because its inherant phase problems irritate him, since you cant correct such problems with EQ. I expect people like Tony who probably doesnt worry as much about that and just listens doesnt have such a big problem with them as they still sound ok and have a particular sound that just works for that full toned reggae bassline (high up on the E or A strings)
On their downside for the size of the box the output you get is very limited, and from a pure SPL perspective there are much better cabs out there (better transient response, better extension etc etc.) however that may not be such a good thing when playing the music these scoops were designed for as in my experience it tends to be less breakneck D&B and more chilled, smooth, or at the very most stomping dance tempo (correct me if im wrong cos I dont listen to much of that stuff)
However I think you guys who are listening to dubstep or the more modern musics should consider something different, from what I hear there is a much larger subbass content in this music which might benefit from a split bass range with good transients for the kick and plenty of uninterrupted smooth sub for the low end
Stu
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All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
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Freddy Hopper
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 10:37pm |
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According to this site the Scoop is the most contreversial speaker ever. So what is it. does it cancell in certain frequencys or not. There is so much smoke about them so explain the fire. Or are we just dealin with a smoke machine. |
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Heathrow_B_line
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 10:47pm |
Are you sure about this stu? the reason why the scoop boys love there scoops is cos they are so loud... they might sound dirty/unaccurate but they are loud.
Which cabs do you feel would out perform scoops in a pure spl situation?
PS i didnt used to but i love scoops now. Edited by Heathrow_B_line - 15 November 2007 at 10:48pm |
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Produce a killer sound. Take no prisoners.
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adambomb
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 10:58pm |
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I think they give the perception of being really loud... that and true SPL are 2 different things.
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Freddy Hopper
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Posted: 15 November 2007 at 11:00pm |
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I have only been using P.A equipment from September last year. And when I set up in most venues the owner is on my case in less than an hour. So my time for experimenting and learning is limited. I am messing around with my LMS during the set, with the DJ twiddling his mixer at the same time. So please give me some figures some advice. X/O POINTS. EQ SHAPES. I have no decent equipment for measuring yet. SO MY REAL QUESTION IS? WHAT IS THE IDEAL X/OVER POINTS AND THE IDEAL EQ SHAPE TO GET THE BEST PERFORMANCE OUT OF A SCOOP BIN. Or is that learned and not passed down in this contreversial speaker enviroment.
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adambomb wrote: