Getting a warm sound? (with simulations) |
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levyte357-
Old Croc Joined: 27 July 2012 Location: UK, South East Status: Offline Points: 8128 |
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Fane 18XB/Fane 18-1000 these days, are classed as a mediocre solution. In the UK, we have easy access to some of the best drivers optimal for Scoops, in the World. In my opinion, if you have optimal Scoop/driver combination, then 4x Scoops should easily cover 400 people with sub, 40-90hz. Drivers that typically meet this mark, have BL>=30, Xmax >=10mm. Which amplifiers do you intend to use on sub? Don't make the mistake of buying expensive drivers, and powering them with amplifiers, which cannot provide real 2kwpc @ 4 ohms, @ 40hz. Edited by levyte357- - 11 December 2022 at 12:11pm |
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vertx
Young Croc Joined: 14 March 2012 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 578 |
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So most people seem to do this 'by ear' but basically having the right balance between subs and low-mids and an overall gradual trend downward in SPL as frequency rises. The on top of this, having constant coverage/dispersion pattern as frequency rises. Examples of controlled dispersion/coverage pattern can be found in speakers like the Danely stuff and Void Incubus and other point source systems.
Visually you can match what you hear on different systems to their directively plots which look similar to this. You want there to be no kinks and outliers both on and off-axis. note this is only for frequencies for which you can 'locate' so doesn't count as much for things under 150hz far as I can tell : In regard to systems you;ve heard not going very deep my opinion on that is that most people go for SPL over low frequency when it comes to scoops and horns on the low end, the lower they need to go they need to get much bigger in enclosure size. My preference is direct radiating enclosures tuned between 30 and 40hz. I hear about people running root/reggae/dub systems with savage highpasses even up to 40hz 48db/oct and I'm sure it works for that kind of music but for me if a system doesn't accentuate between 30-40hz as the 'loudest' part of the system (fletcher munson equal loudness contours once more: https://blog.landr.com/fletcher-munson-curves/) then it's missing something. I run only 24db BW highpass from 24hz up depending on the enclosure tuning (for ported cabs). Having said that, the trade off is requiring more subwoofers, high power amps, and more available power to draw from, and using ported enclosures tuned low. Ideally I want to be hitting the lowest note in this track at full-power without it sounding 'missing' or dipping down in perceived level, and without and anything breaking i.e hitting xmax or enclosure vent velocity limits or popping an amp or circuit breaker . Bear in mind I'm only ever doing <= 350ppl gigs indoors and I don't need 150db in the low end. There was a guy on one of the fb groups recently who tuned Freddies in Ibiza and said something (from memory) about them liking a warmer sound which to him ment crossing the subs a little higher. My take on that was with that system in those rooms having the extra gain between 80-160hz may change the balance enough to warm it up a bit - but this is purely based on my speculation of a few comments/posts I could be quite off the mark here and I'm not about to go cross my own subs up at 160-180hz based off that. Edited by vertx - 12 December 2022 at 2:34am |
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Twinkle
Registered User Joined: 08 December 2022 Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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Thank you very much for your replies. I live in Germany. We have a Proline 3000 for our subs. Vertx, thank you for clearing things up for me.
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Twinkle
Registered User Joined: 08 December 2022 Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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Alright, I think I figured out what changing compliance will do, at least in theory. Somehow I can't post pictures any more. There is an equivalent schematic of a loudspeaker at Randy Bohannon's link. http://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms//C5612AQEiVLZ4UoytKA/article-inline_-shrink_1000_1488/0/1605531242042?e=1676505600&v=beta&t=pi-KdWJZKQXAHAdlfy1tlOs2lGv5t-Zunob-4DwRLgg - http://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C5612AQEiVLZ4UoytKA/article-inline_image-shrink_1000_1488/0/1605531242042?e=1676505600&v=beta&t=pi-KdWJZKQXAHAdlfy1tlOs2lGv5t-Zunob-4DwRLgg The inductor on the right is proportional to Cms. It shorts out the speaker at very low frequencies. A smaller inductance will shunt away more power. So a smaller compliance will protect the driver from too much excursion below cutoff. I hope that our high pass filter will protect us down there if voltage is limited. People seem to agree that hornresp models excursion fairly well. Increasing compliance will give slightly more output around 40 Hz. I found no influence on the loudspeaker's behaviour at higher frequencies. Thank you very much for the link. There are some very old posts about compliance from Rog Mogale and Levyte357 that I like but I never understood them. Let's see if I understand them better now. Next I will put chamber volume and horn throat into my Spice netlist. I don't expect my experiments with netlists to be accurate but I hope they will help me understand things better. Best wishes Axel |
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paulus
Old Croc Joined: 14 December 2005 Location: SOUTH BIRMINGHA Status: Offline Points: 3181 |
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if you are on about the discontinued fane 1000( look like a turbomax 1000 ) not the xb 800 or 1000 what ever they call it now, then if you are using super scoopers remove the dog leg from inside , I have had these drivers until very recently and with the dog leg in there are useless , without dogleg frequencies appear that were just not there with the leg it , they act become a real force !!!! with 1850 they play much nicer but you will loose spl and they will bottom out when pushed again have done this :) but sound way better than with dog leg in ,
Edited by paulus - 12 December 2022 at 9:27am |
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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM
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Twinkle
Registered User Joined: 08 December 2022 Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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Levyte, you critizise drivers with Bl less than 30. Is it because they need more power for being as loud as other drivers?
We are running four 15 inch scoops at 200 - 250 W per speaker for small crowds. We can sense that our drivers are close to their limit. We hope we will play for 200-300 people outdoors some day. Do you say we need high efficiency drivers for being reasonably loud? I was told clipping protection on the Proline 3000 is not good. So we will need to stay away from maximum power. We could get another amplifier at some time in the future if that's necessary. Now we can just about afford four drivers and building material. Paulus, thank you very much for joining the conversation. This is excellent information. Yes, I mean the Fane 1000 that's discontinued. How did the Fane sound in the Superscooper without the dogleg? Was it boomy? How many of them did you use and at what power? Did you play outdoors? Best wishes Axel |
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levyte357-
Old Croc Joined: 27 July 2012 Location: UK, South East Status: Offline Points: 8128 |
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Getting exceptional SPL and low end extension from Scoops can be quite easy, if the wrong compromises, are not made. From personal experience (of Testing and playing gigs), I "personally" don't rate any 15" Scoops. High BL Drivers are more optimal in the 40-50hz range in Scoops. Void V18-1000 in Superscooper, or V18-1000/PD1850 in Mykey Wattco design, driven by amps that can truly deliver 2kwpc @ 4 ohms, will give very good results. Better results can be obtained using more modern drivers, in more modern designs. Proline gives very good 4 ohm bridge, or 8 ohm stereo performance. CVR may outperform Crown Macrotech MA5000VZ downto 45hz HPF, I have not tested this.
Edited by levyte357- - 12 December 2022 at 1:39pm |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10919 |
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As with many of these things, the single numbers tell you only a small part of the picture. Bl, Kms and several other parameters are curves that vary with excursion and temperature. You were on the right path with looking at the Voice Coil magazine reviews, which publish some of the Klippel data which tells you way more than just the simple Thiele-Small parameters on a spec sheet. Look up Bennet Prescott from B&C's YouTube channel for several excellent videos which will tell you a lot more of the reality about choosing a suitable transducer for your cabinet. |
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Twinkle
Registered User Joined: 08 December 2022 Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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Levyte, it's good to hear that high Bl drivers are good at 40 - 50 Hz. And thank you very much for the Void V18-1000 recommendation. Toastyghost, I will watch the videos you recommended. Thank you very much. Best wishes Axel
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levyte357-
Old Croc Joined: 27 July 2012 Location: UK, South East Status: Offline Points: 8128 |
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I Suggested the Mykey Wattco Scoop to you, as it will excel, with many more drivers than the Superscooper 18. Modern High BL drivers, with decent real 11mm+ Xmax, will be exceptional 38hz and above, if care is taken with sub boost, and using real strong sub amps. Most are not. This is from years of testing, similar Scoops, with many different drivers/amps. Sims with Hornresp will not tell you this, only trial and error testing with different drivers, cabs, amps, pre-amps. Like many others, I have owned 18NLW9601, PD1851, PD1852, V18-1000, PD1850, and many decent amplifiers, cabs, so talking from experience.
Edited by levyte357- - 13 December 2022 at 10:57am |
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Twinkle
Registered User Joined: 08 December 2022 Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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I would really like to try the Mykey Wattco scoop for our prototypes. It seems that Facebook took down Mykey's drawings from their website.
KidCreole posted some dimensions of the Wattco scoop in his Hornresp model. I looked at the Scaled Fane Mykey posted with his baffle modification and at Staiper's MS-18 Mk2. It seems they have similar chamber and throat dimensions as the Wattco Scoop. Except for the MS-18 being a mini scoop. Would you say the V18-1000 will play deep and warm in these two cabs? Best wishes Axel |
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Twinkle
Registered User Joined: 08 December 2022 Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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People wrote that the Fane 1000 played extremely deep and clean in a Rhino Mk2 that was modified by Levyte357. Would that be similar in a MS-18 Mk2?
And they wrote that the Fane XB was a lot more musical than other drivers in Fane scoops. Is that still true after more than 10 years? Maybe my friends and me should get a V18-1000 and a driver that's similar to the Fanes and listen to both of them. Best wishes Axel |
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