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what setup should i use?

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robotnation View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robotnation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: what setup should i use?
    Posted: 01 April 2008 at 9:50pm

I was curious what setup would get me a really large amount of crisp clear sound that doesnt honk, muffle, or distort randomly.  My goal is to blast minimal techno and tech house and stuff in warehouses for like 300-500 people (weve only achieved that size party once on a farm with MANY sound systems combined poorly) and i wanted to build whatever would sound REALLY crisp and clean while while blaring at enormous SPLs.  Crossing over is an issue too as midtops and subs are often weird as far as phasing and delay go.  What is the best setup to use?  i am stuck on x1 / hd15, 1850, or punishers but each seemed to have weird downsides i didnt understand.  Does anyone know what is good for me to use?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2008 at 11:26pm
Perhaps your budget would be a good start :)

Your music choice says to me that either of those systems could fit the bill, so it mostly comes down to cost in terms of amps, cabs, storage and transport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tb_mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 1:10am
$$$$??
Punisher + Xtro perhaps? (plus processing)Or DIY the parts seperately to physically align them.
If your playing house/tekno you probably dont have much energy in the 30hz -50hz range,so the X1 isnt required.

1850s would need HD15s or similar above them,with MT122 perhaps? Almost as much work as an XTRO and no dedicated mid horn.



Edited by tb_mike - 02 April 2008 at 1:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mylesound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:11am
why would 1850's need HD15's on top?
the MT can get down to 120 just fine
or am i misstaken?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 5:09am
Yep it would appear from the plot I made of Mal X's MT 122 that 125Hz looks like the lower cutoff and a good place to cross over at. The upper end of the response would didctate a 900Hz crossover point from looking at the plot.
 
I think Mal's MT 122's used PD 123ER drivers but not sure. It wasn't a standard MT 122 layout though. He had the HF in a seperate cabinet, so it was just two 12" horns next to each other in a cabinet.
 
 
I would EQ -3dB at 400Hz with a wide Q and -2.5dB at 185Hz with a narrow Q. It should make for a good plot and sound then. Intresting its nearly 90dB at 50Hz.
 
The plot was made at the first speakerplans shoot out in oct 2004.
 


Edited by Rog Mogale - 02 April 2008 at 5:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 5:14am
in theory what effect do you think having the two mid horns together as aposed to apart with the hf in the middle had on the response, good or bad? Perhaps the level at 50hz wouldnt have been as big with the speakers split apart? but what about in the usable area 125hz-900?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 5:28am
The upper end of the reponse will be louder if the horns are closer together because of coupling. Down at the low end a 20 to 30cm gap between horns isn't going to be very noticable as the wavelengths involved are biiger than the spacing.
 
I found a pic of the horns we measured. Its from Mal's system or should I say GHB hire's system.
 
 
It make a really good noise that system. Those 4 X1's were lethal in that room.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlfieDring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by robotnation robotnation wrote:

i am stuck on x1 / hd15, 1850, or punishers but each seemed to have weird downsides i didnt understand.  Does anyone know what is good for me to use?


One way to keep your bottom end clean is to just use one type of bassbin. For the styles you have suggested a big pile of USB's or HD15's should work nicely. This is essentially the approach funktion1 have taken and they certainally seem to be succeeding at doing crisp loud dance music for the size of audience you suggested.

What mid and top to use above that is a tricky one. The mt122 off this site is good but arguably could use something playing higher than the 2".

You could look for a 3way mid-top like the xtro? (the xtro however is not a good choice for USB's or HD's as its low section is essentially doing the same job) What you want is sometihng like a 12" hornloaded then an 8" or 6" hornloaded and a 1" on a nice flare on  top. As an example the stasys 3 is this kind of cab...

http://www.voidaudio.com/product_detail.asp?id=17

Lastly to be pristine you need the following.

1) Loads of amplifier headroom on really good quality amplifiers
2) High quality processing eq etc
3) All cabling racking etc well thought out and excecuted
4) A good location to measure the rig, experiment with alignment, crossover points and EQ etc
and lastly, DJ's that play good tunes, mix them well, and dont clip the mixer!

Good luck :)

Alf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robotnation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2008 at 3:28pm
i got high quality processesing, racks / cables, and VERY good djs, but amps and extremely large stacks of HDs are a bit expensive.  I think i can afford one amp for subs, one amp for midtops, and about 4 bass bins (at this point in time HD sounds like my best bet).  I also have a small amp for tweeters and two 2nd order passive crossovers built for 4k hz to crossover a 2" horn to a bullet tweeter or two (im not too worried about phasing i think ill be safe).  My question is though: if i have two bullet tweeters and one 2" horn on the same passive crossover, do i run them at half the ohms, equal ohms, or double the ohms of the 2"?  My other question is will 4 HDs get me enough low end for techno and house?  I want to have a flat response down to about 50hz (something i dont have with my current setup sadly).  Thanks for the help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robotnation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:19pm

is there a midtop that plays down to 80 hz for use with the X1?  my ultimate goal is to have subs, mids, and little boxes with a 2" or so tweeter and a 1" tweeter (or two) together.  What would i have to build to land myself response from 80 hz to about 600hz?  I know most people start around 1k for 2" drivers which is why i asked (i have seen some 2" drivers on the web that go that low though so i think ill be safe).  I would

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlfieDring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2008 at 6:03pm
Well this is your problem:

"REALLY crisp and clean while while blaring at enormous SPLs"

+

"for like 300-500 people"

+

"but amps and extremely large stacks of HDs are a bit expensive"

You dont get excellent quality, extreme level AND low cost from anything in life. Im realising at the moment that boxes and drivers are relativly cheap and abundant compared to seriously proper amplifiers.

I think your saying you want to build a system like this;

3 way active split into...

1 * bass amp into 4 bins (HD15 or similar)
1 * Mid amp into some standard mid-tops (is that right? dont you mean dedicated mids?)
1 * treble amp into tweeter boxes with 2" horn + bullets passivly crossed at 4khz?

This isnt going to meet your stated design goal. 4HD's is simply not enough to deliver very large SPL to that size of audience and still be well within their operational range. They will hit power compression or excursion limits and distort the sound before your happy with the result, and this is assuming infinite amplifier headroom.

Have a look at doms system:
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=domsystem

Look at a group of 4HD's and imagine them in the warehouse infront of 500 people. You can SEE its wrong because it is! They might well give a good whack but when you say...

 "REALLY crisp and clean while while blaring at enormous SPLs"

... thats something else.

Regarding low end extension of HD's im not sure how low a group of 4 drops. Dom says on the above link that 8 gets you down to 42 to id imagine 6 would do 50 by some margin.

Im curious if this is just a gap in perceptions particularly when you say your current system dosent get down to 50Hz? What are you using now? And how do you want this new rig to compare to that?

Alf


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robotnation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2008 at 10:20pm

ill break the bank and invest in more equipment.  Lets say i have unlimited budget and space and am only capable of building the x1 and hd15.  How many of each of those two speakers will land me sound to play for 500+ people?  Should i combine the two or just use a large stack of HD?  The last thing is what should i run above an HD if i am incapable of constructing xtro / mt 102 /mt 122?  The deciding factor is angles being at or under 45degrees.  Thanks for the help.

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